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Nick Wright: We lie about Michael Jordan

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by hakeem94, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. Caesar

    Caesar Member

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    What are you talking about?

    MJ was 38-40 and his skill was still ridiculous. That's with a damaged finger on his shooting hand that he sliced open with a cigar cutter that he never fully healed, broken ribs and constantly draining fluid from his bad knees.

    Remember, MJ's bday is half-way through an NBA season. So year 1 was 38 years old the first half of the season, and 39 the second half. 2nd year, 39 first half and 40 the 2nd half.

    What player that age has this skill level? Do you really believe LeBron will look this good at that age? (and btw. Kareem was a big man being fed by the GOAT point guard in his prime and retired only 1 year older than MJ...not 10 years older as you say.)





    Nice write up:
    http://nobodytouchesjordan.blogspot.com/2015/05/section-20-michael-jordans-wizards-years.html
     
    Invisible Fan likes this.
  2. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    I never claimed to love fundamentals. I said the way the game is played today violates basic rules that they were strict about calling in the past. You have yet to address that but I give you an A+ for deflection.
     
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  3. Rokman

    Rokman Member

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    Jordan would be averaging a 40+ point triple double in today's in NBA and still be in discussion for the top defender each year.
     
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  4. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    Ceasar

    There is no way the Bulls were going to win a title in 95 vs Shaq and Hakeem relying on Pippen to be their leading rebounder and Kukoc to primarily play PF. Jordan played. His team was missing something and he lost. He's a true wing. He needs bigs to control the paint for him like every other true wing that has played.

    As far as Kareem, I'm not giving him all the credit. I stated he has had more success winning wise than Jordan. Same number of titles and he's been to the Finals more. Yeah, his teams were great when he won. That's routine for most players when they won, Jordan included. I don't see the point of mentioning teammates unless you are arguing on behalf of someone who won on a team that didn't arguably have the most help on it that season. That wouldn't be any team Jordan won with.
     
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  5. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    smoothie

    Jordan is not more decorated than Kareem defensively. The DPOY award wasn't created until 82/83, when Kareem was 35. Kareem retired as the leader in blocks as well.

    Havlicek isn't any smaller than a lot of wings playing today, and Durant hasn't been winning titles every year now. But sure, he could score on anybody.
     
    #65 Icehouse, Apr 7, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
  6. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Contributing Member

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    A decade ago, we were having this same conversation about Jordan vs Kobe. Now Kobe is rarely compared to Jordan.

    I would love to see Kobe, Lebron and Melo on the same team.
     
  7. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    C'mon bro those vids and write ups were made by brainwashed nike/gatorade fanboys. They exaggerate everything he does you know Hakeem could have still played and was still extremely skilled when he retired, right? Jordan spent 3+ years out of the league so I dont care what age he retired at, thats like somebody running a marathon and then stopping to rest midway. Lebron has spent more years as the GOAT now than Jordan's entire career, thats a fact. Lebron can retire now, come back when he is 38 and he would be in better condition than Jordan despite playing more years. In his last year Jordan was washed up on the Wizards, Lebron is still the best player on the planet playing as many seasons as Jordan did. C'mon bro get Nike shoes out of your ass.

    Also Kareem was fed by a HOF pg but Jordan had a HOF sf in Pippen, which wing player was better than pippen during their time? If Jordan was so good how come 3 1st round exits before Pippen and PJ and Rodman arrived? Couldnt beat the Pistons till they got old, couldn't beat Bird Pacers till they got old. Look how many rings would Hakeem have if he had been on the Bulls roster with Pippen and Rodman? How many rings will Jordan have if he played with Ralph Sampson and crackheads? We have seen the answer during his play before PJ, Jordan is an extremely skilled player but he is not as good as you make him out to be.

    Jordan played 15 years, Kareem played 20 years how is Jordan better?
     
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  8. Caesar

    Caesar Member

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    "brainwashed nike/gatorade fanboys" is basically your argument toward anyone who favors Jordan as the GOAT as if to you, it's something that can't be backed by accolades, stats and video footage or skill level. Were all just brainwashed by "Be Like Mike" commercials as if LeBron isn't constantly on commercials his whole career as well and goes way above and beyond MJ to be in the media like the attention w**** that he is(A lot like Shaq in that regard IMO. I compared LeBron to the Shaq of perimeter players, but they are a lot more alike beyond that).

    That write up may be from a Jordan bias fan but he also has write ups on different things such as his case for Hakeem being the GOAT center which i agree with and i don't agree with everything as he says Kevin Johnson is one of the most underrated pg's of all time which i agree, but he says CP3 is the most overrated which i disagree with. He doesn't just spew out opinions as "FACTS" like LeBron fans tend to do. He backs up his research with stats and comparisons. Which brings me to my point. You didn't read any of it and then go on to write a big paragraph about things i've already addressed in previous posts which you clearly didn't read. But, like Nick Wright, and LeBron fans, you'll continue to ignore the true facts and shout "FACTS" with your opinion.

    Give Hakeem any of MJ or LeBrons teams for the entirety of his career and he's probably #1-#3 without question. Give MJ or LeBron any of Hakeems teams for the entirety of their careers and they're probably anywhere from 8-15 as most usually place Hakeem. That's the thing about GOAT talk. It involves discussion with many things and one of those things happens to be team success which involves a bit of luck or the player made his own path such as Kareem or LeBron or Kobe even.
    Kareem stays in Milwaukee, he probably retires with the 1 ring, but more MVPs and even crazier stats not unlike Wilt had he not gone to LA to win 1 more only.
    LeBron never makes his own path and joins up with Wade and Bosh, and he's probably sitting right now at 0 rings since the CAVS would have never sucked enough with LeBron to draft Kyrie or any of the assets used to get Kevin Love. They would have continued to do as that incompetent franchise does and give over the hill players big contracts just to get them to play in Cleveland over another city. Lebron would have had them regularly competing and overachieving and making the Finals in a weak conference and always losing. His career would be like Wilts and Kareems had they stayed with their 1st team.
    Kobe goes to Charlotte instead of forcing himself to LA and he's probably sitting at 0 rings too and probably compared more to his actual statistical equivalent in Dominique Wilkins.
    Hell, what about MJ and Hakeems careers had the trade happened? Portland offered Clyde and the #2 pick to Houston for Ralph Sampson. Imagine Hakeem, Jordan and Drexler together for their whole career. Maybe they go Barkley instead of MJ b/c of Drexler but Drexler was coming off of the bench playing 17mpg, highly doubt that would have kept the Rockets from getting MJ. Say they did, the old 97 Rockets all in their prime and youth their entire careers? Jordan would have 2 or 3 less titles probably.
    These things are just part of the NBA landscape. LeBron will continue to carve his own path. He could join the Warriors or Rockets next year and win 6 rings in a row and to you and many others, he will be the unquestioned GOAT. To me and many others, it'll be cheap and i'll completely disregard him as GOAT and view him as one of the greatest to play who was just a weak ass mercenary.

    If you want to put LeBron and Kareem ahead of MJ. That's all you. It's your own subjective GOAT list. Disregarding the fact that MJ doubled LeBron's accolades in the same time frame as LeBrons current career or half of Kareems career and saying simply, "Jordan played less, so he's not the GOAT" is a ridiculous argument, but if that's your argument, so be it. To also say that Jordan had "3 years rest" as the only reason he was that high of skill level with the WIzards is completely overlooking that he's still ancient for any athlete that age especially without another all-star/superstar like old Kareem had, old Stockton/Malone had, etc. and it overlooks that he still had tons of injuries he played through and that kept him out of games with the Wizards.
    You should really try and read that write up about his time with the Wizards. They aren't opinions. He brings statistical facts and comparisons and it's pretty eye opening. He doesn't just feed you the good, he goes into detail from his worst games to his best too. I think his time with the Wizards was a success and what's overblown is the ESPN mentality and idea they keep spreading that it was a big circus and a joke when the players themselves that played against him at that age know it was no joke. Hell, old Shawn Marion helped lock up prime LeBron in the NBA FINALS. 40 year old MJ cooked Marion over and over. BBQ chicken. Skill level unmatched by any one of your GOATs other than Hakeem. LeBron at that age would have just done what he does and joined Kobe and Shaq and Phil in LA. Instead, stories come out that it was Kobe who wanted to leave LA to play with and learn from old ass MJ. Alphas are alphas. LeBron is the GOAT beta for sure. He'd be the perfect #2 to any top 15 player.
     
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  9. How Sweet It Is!

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    When MJ started at Chicago, they basically told him to take every shot in order to speed up his development.
     
  10. Patience

    Patience Contributing Member

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    Jordan won three titles before Rodman arrived. What in the world are you talking about?
     
  11. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    Jordan won three titles with a supporting cast so good that when he retired they still won over 50 games and almost went to the ECF's. He didn't need Rodman from 91-93. He still had the best team in basketball.
     
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  12. Patience

    Patience Contributing Member

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    Yes, Pippen, Grant, and Kukoc in their primes were good enough to lead a team to 50 wins and the second round of the playoffs (although most people at the time thought they overachieved). I still don’t understand how that means Jordan wasn’t as good as LeBron. Wade and Bosh are arguably equal to Pippen and Rodman talent wise. LeBron only went 2/4 in the Finals playing with those guys. Jordan never lost in the Finals once.

    I don’t know whether LeBron or Jordan is clearly the greater player, but I don’t agree with the argument that Jordan’s teams were off the charts talent-wise compared to LeBron’s teams. If anything, he made guys like Grant, Kukoc, and Armstrong (and even Pippen to some degree) look better than they were. He also resurrected Rodman’s career. Rodman was nearly out of the league after his disastrous stint with the Spurs (punctuated by being dominated by the Rockets in the WCF).
     
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  13. hakeemthagreat

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    Washed up? By what standards? He was 40+ coming off hiatus and still putting up over 20pts a game. All that with a roster that was atrocious. So it's cool you bring up MJ's tenure with the Wizards, but atleast put it in the proper context before spewing nonsense
     
  14. CCorn

    CCorn Member

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    Strawman.


    Harden is the GOAT
     
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  15. Karolik

    Karolik Member

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    If we had a survey, then most people would say Jordan is the GOAT. Therefore he is the GOAT
     
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  16. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    Who made that argument?

    This is the type of BS that needs to die. Grant looked great in Orlando, right? Pippen and Kukoc looked great in 95, right?

    No he didn't. Rodman was great in SA. He flamed out in the playoffs due to his behavior but wasn't almost out of the league. The Bulls just left him alone (as far as dealing with his behavior), and that was because of Phil Jackson telling them to. Didn't have anything to do with Jordan. His play on the court was stellar just like it was in SA, when he helped them to the best record in basketball and helped Robinson win MVP.

    Y'all try to credit Jordan for everything under the sun.
     
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  17. hakeemthagreat

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    Michael Adams was a scoring PG. Not many undersized pg's, outside of AI, have go-to moves. Not sure the point of bringing him up. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Hakeem, Kareem, Ewing, David Robinson, KG, Tim Duncan etc..all had go to moves they knew they could score on most nights. Lebron's the ONLY superstar I've seen his opponent not guard him & let him shoot in a NBA finals series. Thats ridiculous. The old school era was a era where you had to work harder to get shots. This is fact
     
  18. Mr. Space City

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    michael adams still didn't have a lot of "go to moves" and was a 20 ppg scorer in the 90's.

    nique didn't have more "go to moves" than lebron and was a consistent 25+ ppg scorer.

    and teams sag off lebron because he's almost unstoppable when he decides to slash so the only chance you have is giving him a ton of space and playing for his drive.

    they played off a lot on guys in the 80's because the 3 point shot wasn't what it was now.

    look at the space the celtics are giving jordan when he's past the 3 point line.



    lebron would have no problem scoring over 90% of the league in the "old school era"'

    not every team was the bad boys pistons or the ewing knicks.
     
    #78 Mr. Space City, Apr 9, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
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  19. BigDog63

    BigDog63 Member

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    Not only IS there indeed an argument, Jordan doesn't win it. Jordan may not even be the best player of his era. What makes Jordan better than Magic Johnson, for example? Did Jordan play all five positions? Did he make his teammates better as much as Magic did? Hakeem has better overall stats (much better blocks and rebounds, similar assists, lower scoring). etc etc. Then you get to bring up Wilt, Jabaar, Russell...and that's just the centers.

    What Jordan did was come along at the right time to become uber popular.
     
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  20. 92i

    92i Member

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    Just stop bro. I respect Magic Johnson but the man was dribbling with his back to the basket most of the time. I am a LeBron fan and I never really got to see MJ play, but I still got to go with MJ as the GOAT. LeBron is in the conversation though and the next 4-5 years of his career will determine if he finishes 2nd or if he is indeed the GOAT.
     

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