Are you advocating banning Islam? If you are, that has to be one of the stupidest things ever considered- and I'm someone who'd really prefer that we don't have any religions. I think the world would be just fine if we didn't have religions and if we just all lived by basic decent human principles. But to ban a religion is utterly ridiculous, and this is why so many people don't bother to respond to ATW anymore b/c they feel, ultimately, his point is that Islam should be banned. If he doesn't feel that way, then fine and I misinterpreted. But if he is seriously talking about banning the Islam religion from a country, he is making a completely pointless argument. Personally, I don't give a **** about the source. Evil is evil. I don't care if someone kills in the name of Islam or in the name of Rocky Raccoon- because convincing people to quit their religion is ridiculous and pointless- it's not even an option. The option is that you have strict punishment for anyone that kills. And yes, it can be that simple.
There are two things I am very sure I am right about - Lance Armstrong being a Doper and political Islam. You were already proven wrong on one of the two...
Yeah, I think you are probably right, in that some people want to do that, and this is the point of emphasizing every repetitive bad act in a series of bad acts. I don't think banning a religion has ever worked out well in human history, and it's not that effective. It's almost like (to take this "it's the religion itself" point of view) you would more like need a reformed church and a fundamentalist church, and then nations make take stands against one segment or the other. Still probably wouldn't work that well. I am not, by the way, in the "it's 100% socio-economic in nature" type of liberal, but then, I'm almost never one to say it's 100% one thing when it comes to human beings.
You don't seem to have a problem discussing right-wing extremism and white supremacists. I agree that these are horrible. What do you want exactly?
Yes, but I had the class to admit I was wrong on Lance Armstrong. Even started a thread on his pending confession... http://bbs.clutchfans.net/index.php?threads/lance-armstrong-considering-a-confession.231708/ I don't disagree with you on Islam (you know this), but I don't like your baiting posts on the subject.
I'm pretty sure there is another thread about mass hysteria with the left, and now you're complaining that Left isn't hysterical enough.... when it's a topic that the right is fixated on. Look... it's incredibly sad. I'll say another prayer tonight for the victims and their families (seriously). But terrorism is an issue where we all should know where we are at the moment and what we can do. It's as solvable as it can be militarily. We are taking away their land, and we've done a great job of going after their finances. We can't rebuild every country with a strong military and democratic government. I could go on about things I want to help make this problem better like having an admin that doesn't slash our state dept in half and demoralize our intelligence folks. But instead they seem fixated on the business of war and making Boeing and Lockheed more rich. But it doesn't matter what I think at the moment about this administrations policy on war in the Middle East. Its not going to stop the inevitable home grown terrorist attack here and there. As groups like ISIS continue to lose more ground, they will get more and more desperate and will use these barbaric methods more and more.
I feel there is more we can do, as Americans, about right-wing (and left-wing, for that matter) extremism in America than I can do about Islamic extremism in Europe. Also, people carrying torches and yelling about jews is VERY UNUSUAL in my country! So it's worth posting about. Islamists blowing **** up has been going on for many decades, unfortunately. So it's literally and tragically not news. :-( But if you don't want a ban, what are you advocating? Better screening? (But so many of the perps are 1st and 2nd generation and even seem integrated in some cases; this was the case with some of the ones in Spain recently. Disturbing as hell.) Or pushing for the reform-minded muslims to succeed? (Sam Harris strategy, from what I can tell.) I'm not trying to be snotty. But you were being snotty with the entire "left" for not starting these threads, or commiserating every time, and I was trying to explain why I think that is so. Cheers.
As I have often said, I don't really have a perfect solution (if it was that easy, someone would have done it, right?). I guess what I am advocating is for the left to acknowledge the role of Islam in all of this. I strongly feel that the strategy of pretending that "Islam has nothing to do with it" is not only not working, it is in fact strengthening assholes like David Duke, and yes, Donald Trump. It's too obvious a lie born out of an aspiration to act in a politically correct fashion. It also makes life much harder for reform-minded Muslims, because it basically says "there is no need for reform" - why reform Islam if "it has nothing to do with it"? It seems quite obvious to me that Islam urgently needs reform. And it has to come from within. I get the argument of saying "if you say it too often from the outside (not being a Muslim), you will get the opposite effect". I understand the argument. I still think it's wrong. So, if you ask me for concrete steps, from the top of my head I am advocating for: Stop with the lie of "Islam has nothing to do with it". It strengthens right-wing extremists and makes life harder for reform-minded Muslims. Support only reform-minded Muslims. Push back the influence of extremist Islamic ideology specifically from Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Iran. Stop selling weapons to Saudi Arabia and Iran. Stop the dependence on oil from these countries. Isolate fanatical Islamists like Erdogan (Turkey). Do not accept misogynist practices (forced veiling, lesser rights for women, discrimination of homosexuals, etc.) you would never accept from e.g. the Catholic church from Muslims as "cultural differences". Liberals specifically fought long and hard for equal rights for women, homosexuals, etc. - it's a travesty to see them accepting horrible practices because they want to be PC. Improve screening of immigrants from predominantly Muslim countries, specifically in Europe. Do not accept any form of Sharia law in Western countries, not even in civil arbitration - it is simply entirely incompatible with Western values. Find a way to support education and spread of Western values (e.g. equal rights for women, freedom of speech, freedom of media, equal rights for homosexuals, no religious discrimination, etc. etc.) in predominantly Muslim countries. Education has to eventually be the key to overcoming indoctrination by medieval religious beliefs. Do not bomb Muslim countries in response to terror - it is not the right response, and it will only serve those who promote a culture of self-victimization as an excuse to recruit even more terrorists. I think all of this directly relates to the terror we are experiencing in Europe. There is connecting tissue between the beliefs of many mainstream Muslims and the terror attacks by the fringe of Muslims. And I don't think that "everyone agrees on this". I think it continues to be a fair subject for debate as long as Muslim intolerance continues and as long as terror in the name of Islam continues.
Ban all religions? We (ClutchFans) had a similar discussion before; it didn't go so well: http://bbs.clutchfans.net/index.php?threads/dissecting-the-all-religions-are-bad-argument.283184/ I have to vehemently disagree: I would care if someone killed in the name of religion with 1,000,000,000 adherents, that began as a systematic series of conquests, whose founder ordered assassinations for the mere authoring of satirical poetry, and of which has bureaucracies and legal codes that appear to be Stone-Age in origin. On the other hand, Rocky Raccoon was a song written by The Beatles - who have, to my knowledge, not authorized any assassinations due to mild discomfort upon learning of the satirical criticism of their music. So, for some reason I just don't think I would feel as concerned if someone carried out an attack in the name of this particular song. Germany has, in a sense, banned Nazism. It is very much an entanglement of political ideology and religion. Germany's actions are as close to an analogy to banning Islam as I can find. Strange that China and Japan import the majority of Saudi Arabia's oil; yet, the two countries don't spend nearly as much as the US does on combating "terrorism". What exactly does "terrorism" then have to do with oil? This is after all your thesis; I should hope you would feel more inclined to defend it.
Got it. How about I post about 100 positive things people do in the name of Islam, then we can clearly see that the religion itself has nothing to do with it- unless you think that all the people who do positive things in the name of Islam are full of ****.
This is a much more important topic than the tiny number of idiots wearing white hoods in Virginia. But talking about Islamic terrorism doesn't meet the media's goals of dividing people and riling them up. Plus it's obviously racist and intolerant to talk about the problem (sarcasm). Wake up people - don't let the media define your agenda. They only want their advertising money.
For dandorotik, it only had one cuss word so actually not too bad! But yeah if you are expecting logic out of "Lubbock Dan" then you will be in for some disappointment.
Was the Rudolf Hess neo-Nazi rally that took place in Berlin the other day illegal? I thought much the same as you did about the banning of Nazism. Then, I heard about the rally.
If you are not strong enough mentally or emotionally to handle profanity, I suggest you find another board that is more to your PG-13 preference. As for logic, since you are someone who frequently makes great leaps in logic, you are not qualified to evaluate other posters' logic- I suggest a refresher course in that for you. And as for lubbockDan, if you are using that phrase as some sort of insult, you are insulting a region of the country that has numerous wonderful, intelligent, and decent people. Since you are prone to stereotype, this of course doesn't surprise me. In addition, as someone who frequently lectures others on their use of insults, the hypocrisy is revealing, but also completely expected by most of us. Now, if that paragraph above is too long for you to comprehend, I would also suggest practicing your retention skills. However, I'd be glad to give you a condensed version (this will of course, be followed by a BigTexxx reply; "I'll be the bigger man and not resort to...."- and then we can all laugh):
A lot of these fundies think they're good people. They probably are for the majority of things we all hold common, but the rules they follow are much stricter than the looser rules individualistic societies enforce. I've met fundies from both religions who are good family men and were highly respectable and could hold a great conversation, but that private part that they do with their families isn't really polite to talk about. This is a big problem for me who likes to confront things individually because it isn't about the person anymore and it's loaded with emotional landmines and guarded responses against their way of life and family. Thank you for your list. There would be many idealists in Europe who would be against 8,9,10 out of shame or fear they're persecuting Islam. Monied interests and the lack of a spine in politicians stall the other points related to foreign policy... I would support all of the steps, despite the cost and as another step I would add increasing funds for direct integration like incentives for language courses (which many countries do) and skill/job training (highly unpopular). I wouldn't make welfare checks a staple for basic income rather push people who are looking for a new life feel like they can create a new life without dependency on the state. Wishful goals I guess. I hope it gets better in Europe. I'm guessing American 'leftists' are not the direct target of the frustration in your initial first post...
The left is irrelevant. They hold no majority in any of the houses of government and have little power at the moment. Who the **** cares if they talk about Islam.
I agree with most all of those except spreading Western values. Maybe not the concept of it but the implementation of it. There are Americans who don't accept these western values. We saw in state after state, conservatives passing laws to limit the rights of homosexuals and to increase what they laughably call "religious liberty" which is the right to discriminate against homosexuals. All of this as a result of heavy lobbying for gay rights. I think you'd see the backlash you already see in the Middle East to Western values. Iraq is a great example. It used to be largely secular type nation and it has probably gone backwards 50 years as a result of American involvement in Iraq since the 90's. It's like Obama said, people cling to guns and religion when they feel threatened by things they don't understand. Same thing in Muslim countries. I think spreading Western values by example is best when dealing with backwards type cultures.
