James Harden on Kevin McHale: "He's a clown. He never taught me anything"

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Snow Villiers, Oct 7, 2017.

  1. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    I agree wholeheartedly but MDA won't look good if he stops in the 2nd round.

    He has to make WCF and Finals to look good IMO. McHale made 3rd round.

    MDA like McHale stuck in the WCF and never got out.

    If Harden wants to compare, then he should compare to the player McHale was.

    If Harden wants to compare coaches, he has to wait till he becomes a coach.

    We will see then how much he can teach younger players and who the clown coach is.

    Everything else are apples and oranges.

    Drawing on boards during the Allstar Game is just a gimmick.
     
    #461 daywalker02, Oct 12, 2017 at 7:28 AM
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 7:33 AM
  2. SirIvyLeague

    SirIvyLeague Member

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    From my own models.

    SIL
     
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  3. Richie_Rich

    Richie_Rich Member

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    From the ESPN broadcast during the 4th quarter last night:

    Mark Jones (play-by-play): You know, a lots said about James Harden and his ability to lead this team... coming under criticism by his former coach recently. Some headlines made by Kevin McHale and the subsequent response by Harden. But, I can tell you during the summer time, on several occasions, Harden got his teammates together, eight or nine of them. He got them together in Miami and worked out for 5-6 days. Got them together in the Bahamas; did the same. Got them together in Las Vegas during the summer league and did the same. So, he's doing his part to do some team building, get some chemistry going. I guess if nothing else, it shows that winning is important to him [Harden].
    Hubie Brown (color): Listen, some of the greatest leaders we've ever had hardly spoke, in practice or in games, OK. They did it by their actions, by how hard they worked in practice and how hard they worked in games. They put up these legendary numbers, they led by example. They did not have to yell. They let the coaching staff coach and critique and so on. They led by how they played and by being good people, by leading off the court with their habits. So, there's a lot more to this 'leadership' than yelling and screaming in the locker room or out on the court.
    Jones: Great point, coach.

    These comments, along with those of player analysts like Chauncy and Pierce, reflect favorably towards Harden. They've all been around the league and understand exactly what Harden brings from a leadership standpoint. McHale is a joke and is abusing his former position to spew vitriol towards Harden in a sorry attempt to tarnish his reputation.

    Those that know the game, know that Harden leads in his own way. Players and coaches absolutely respect him.

    Wish I could say the same for some posters in here.
     
  4. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    Leadership relative to the NBA is a dumb concept.

    Great leaders are always brought up as these guys who've won championships.

    Or come very close.

    NM that it's a team game. Kobe's a good leader?? He seems like an asshole and douchebag as a leader. It just works for him because he was so good and then they had teams around him that won.
    Duncan was a good leader?? He didn't do anything but lead by example I guess?? Was Chauncy a good leader?? When he sucked or only when he got great?? Is RW a good leader?? I don't see it.

    Lol.

    The inverse is where you can be more factual. Some teams have assholes or bad teammates that are clearly not the best leaders.

    I don't know if Harden is a good leader or not. I don't really care. I'd much rather he focus on defense, turnovers, and off ball movement. I don't give a **** if he is the clear "leader" of the squad.
     
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  5. Richie_Rich

    Richie_Rich Member

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    It's not a hard concept to grasp. Teams set goals for themselves in the preseason: winning record, playoff berth, WCF, finals, championships, etc. Leaders step up and lead their teams towards achieving these team goals. Not sure how this is different than any other enterprise or business venture?

    With all due respect, it doesn't really matter if you or any other 'fan' sees Kobe's legendary drive and work ethic. His competitive fire and will to win is documented and well known. Can Kobe be an asshole? Sure, but how does this personality trait prevent him from leading his teams to championships? There are all sorts of leaders. The best leaders, by definition, lead their teams towards achieving team goals. These goals usually involve winning so, yes, the best winners are generally the best leaders because basketball is a team game.

    That's correct. They are terrible leaders because they are bad teammates and don't lead their teams to success. It's only 'factual' to you because it's easier to place blame for losing than it is to give credit for winning.

    Being a good leader and focusing on defense, turnovers and off ball movement are not mutually exclusive concepts. Nobody ever said Harden is a perfect leader. Even he knows there are areas of his game that need improvement. In this case, he leads by acknowledging his weaknesses and working hard to improve, and it's much easier to improve when you're not carrying the ENTIRE load of the offense.

    There's a reason Harden recruited CP3 to Houston. He knows he needs help and can't do it alone; nobody can. IMO, this is a clear sign of maturity and leadership on Harden's part. It shows strong leadership because he's doing what's best for his team--personal accolades and MVP votes be damned--it's about championships for Harden.

    He deserves credit, not ridicule from McHale or anyone else.
     
    #465 Richie_Rich, Oct 12, 2017 at 10:35 AM
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 11:01 AM
  6. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member

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    We have a new name for SIL . . .

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Easy

    Easy Contributing Member

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    Jones's comment was clearly in Harden's favor. I'm not so sure about Brown's. He probably wasn't intentional. Harden's reputation (fair or not) is that he does NOT always play hard on both ends and his off court behaviors are NOT team building (except for Jones's account here). I don't think the criticism Harden gets as a leader is about how vocal he is. A lot of quiet stars were viewed favorably as good leaders exactly like what Hubie said. But Harden has not had that reputation as Hubie described.
     
  8. SirIvyLeague

    SirIvyLeague Member

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    This

    SIL
     
  9. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    Fine... if that's the pinnacle of leadership, then so be it.

    Then all these people saying Harden isn't a great leader are absolute morons because he of course does that.

    The reality is that leadership is much more complex and nuanced than that.

    And?? None of that has anything to do with leadership.
    Chuck Hayes also had legendary drive and a great work ethic.
    Nobody has ever said "that Chuck Hayes, what a great and inspirational leader!!"

    Or... again... fine, if that is another thing you describe as great leadership... fine. It has very little to do with basketball success.
    Basketball success is about talent.

    Moreover....

    Because some people, many people, don't respond positively to that type of leadership. It's the exact thing that led to the split with Shaq. Was that team needing changes? Sure. But trading Shaq wasn't one of them. He was still a beast.

    This is dumb. There's absolutely nothing here besides generalities. Leaders want to win, so the best leaders are the ones that win?? Wtf??
    Talent wins.
    Literally EVERY EVERY EVERY EVERY EVERY GM in basketball will tell you this.
    Don't trust me... watch them TELL YOU THAT on Open Court, NBA tv.

    The reason Lebron goes to the Finals every year isn't because he's a great leader.
    It's because he's a top 5 player all time, playing in a crappy Eastern Conference.

    No... it's only factual to me - not sure why in wrapped in apostrophes?? - BECAUSE OF THE FACTS.

    More to the point... part of the basis of this thread and this discussion is because the Rockets acquired CP3, who many in the media are all of a sudden saying can take the leadership burden away from Harden..

    But wait!!! I thought the best leader are winners (your words).. yet CP3 can't get past the 2nd round and Harden has twice?

    What's 'factual' to me is that CP3 is probably a solid leader whereas a guy like Gilbert Arenas probably wasn't.

    What's not 'factual' to me is that CP3 is any better or worse a leader than Kobe, or Jordan, or Lebron... or the same for Harden.

    Nobody said they were mutually exclusive. I rated what was more important.

    I'm not sure what you're arguing?? I didn't proclaim Harden a bad leader that deserves ridicule.

    I just said I don't care.

    I heard Fertita on NBARadio yesterday respond to the Harden leadership question that way as well. "He's a great leader, obviously, because he recruited CP3!"

    Not to reiterate what I've said a ton now, but again, it's another thing where I'm like... um, ok, that makes him a great leader how exactly??

    ----

    To clarify, for me, great leaders are those that naturally inspire confidence and trust, and encourage and effectuate improvement from their followers somewhat organically. I just made that up, so its a little wishy washy, but leadership is very nuanced. I wouldn't say Harden is a great leader because he makes his teammates better by setting them up (that's the talent part), or because he yells at them (if he did, don't really see that), or because he trains in the offseason (um, he's a professional athlete... that's basically his job.. I do continuing education, that doesn't make me a better leader). And along the same lines I don't think he's a bad leader because he's bad at defense and likes strip clubs.

    I appreciate that he recruits other stars, organizes offseason training sessions, and just wants to win.

    But again, leadership is complex, and I think its even more complex, in fact much more complex, in the NBA and team sports, where ultimately talent prevails 9 times out of 10.[/QUOTE]
     
  10. JaceMan da SpaceMan

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    I water L mental
     
  11. Easy

    Easy Contributing Member

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    Of course leadership is complex. You can get a PhD in studying leadership. I don't think leadership in sports is any more complex than leadership in other professions.

    But there are traits that almost universally agreed to be necessary for leadership, things like resiliency in adversity, willingness to sacrifice, inspiring confidence, etc, just to name a few. And it depends a lot on context. Different leadership styles thrive in different context. I don't think judging leadership in star players is "dumb concept" as you put it.
     
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  12. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    Yeah, reading back what I wrote it wasn't exactly what I meant, actually.
    Wasn't really trying to say its more complex in sports, but rather, valuing it is more ambiguous.

    Cause I think in other settings - some business settings, in crisis situations - some of the universal traits of leadership, like those you note hold more weight because they aren't necessarily outweighed by some other items. Whereas in sports, you shoot dribble and move like Steph Curry, you have a good chance of being very dominant. You have the size and athleticism and skill-set of Lebron James, you are likely to be a really really really freaking good all time player...
     
  13. Snow Villiers

    Snow Villiers Member

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    Wat?
     
  14. JaceMan da SpaceMan

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    O k u don wanna
     
  15. Deuce

    Deuce Contributing Member

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  16. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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  17. caneks

    caneks Rookie

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  18. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    That's right McFail. James didn't get the team to Play Harder when you told him to.
     
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  19. Deuce

    Deuce Contributing Member

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    McHale: "James Harden isn't a leader because he doesn't CLAP HIS HANDS loud enough. He just is too passive. Maybe waves. Look, you have to have both hands and bang them together LOUDLY to get that CLAP. Once you do that, they play harder. That's what being a leader is all about."
     
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