Wilt had no competition. Hakeem played in the golden era of skilled big men. Context also matters. Like I said, big picture. It dropped from 38.3% to 34.1% when they added a rookie Pippen. You don't think that is a lot? What would Harden's usage rate look like if say we had drafted him instead of OKC behind Durant and WB? I would safely bet it to be in the high 30's. Honestly, this discussion to me is less about arguing or defending and more about intelligent debate of stats and what they mean or translate to actual basketball. Don't know about you, but I prefer seeing these last few posts instead of the crap we saw earlier and typically see.
Of course context matters. That’s the point of the eras and style of basketball being played. Not too mention the length and athleticism increase we’ve seen. Hardens highest usg% is this year when we finally got another playmaker. Otherwise with the rockets it’s roughly 30%. Jordan after pippen was a consistent 33% Per 100 (13 Chicago years) Jordan shot 30.8 fga and 11.5 fta for a total of 42.3 total shot attempts Harden (Houston only) shot 24.3 fga and 13.3 fta for a total of 37.6 total shot attempts per 100 As for the bolded, I couldn’t agree more.
he is gonna take over lebron spot. I know everyone thinks Bron then Kd, but na Harden is better than Kd,Westbrook, and Curry. If you took the top 5, Harden probably the only one if given bunch of ok players he possibly turn them into a 45-50 win team. I mean Westbrook is probably the closest as hes done it but not as good as Harden. Lebron done it alot.
Considering context within each era allows us to compare across eras. We can take things such as increase in team points across eras, increase in possessions, etc. Factoring in such things absolutely allows us to make educated comparisons. Just because they didn't have stats back then, doesn't mean we can't calculate wingspans, verticals, acceleration, hotspots, etc using videos, pictures, and other media that allows us to make such measurements. Yes, Jordan had more shot attempts, but he also kept onto more possessions. Harden on the other hand, is surrounded by shooters for him to pass to.
Yeah of course. We CAN compare across eras, and we do, but it doesn’t make them easy nor fair comparisons. Gathering video logs and such makes it vastly more difficult to compare than looking at a spreadsheet. And thus the importance of statistics. Jordan gets extra credit “because handchecking made it tougher”. Meanwhile harden gets extra credit because of the “advancement of analytics and the 3 ball”. Needless to say, both are all time greats that would have dominated in either era respectively. But if either played in the other era they would have been vastly different players. Harden is more efficient and a better facilitator. Jordan is a better defender and more clutch (among some other things). But that’s a silly argument to say James is surrounded by better shooters to pass it to. This year yeah but we have always been a middle of the pack 3pt % team under harden. We just have morey who has been changing the way the game is played. Jordan be plenty of good shooters around him. They just didn’t shoot so much back then because it was an “inefficient” shot. Edit: also during the Bulls 2 3peats they were top 5 3 times in 3pt%, 6th another, top 15th another and then bottoms half the last championship. Jordan was surrounded by shooters just as well.
This is where I firmly disagree. I don't think Jordan's game would have changed much and he would have been a vastly different player. That was the original point I was trying to make. His hyper efficiency from midrange ensures his game translates over to today's game in spite of players and teams being more 3pt happy, just like how CP3's midrange game is still extremely effective in today's game. My argument boils down to this, in an era of much tougher defense within the perimeter, Jordan is able to achieve a PPP as good (and usually better) as Harden who is surrounded by space, Jordan would absolutely feast on defenses that are now geared at stopping the perimeter and rim, instead of the midrange. I am comparing this year's Harden to Jordan, because this is the year he is good enough to make that conversation even worth consideration. When Harden had Brewer around him, would anyone seriously consider putting him anywhere close to Jordan's shadow? I don't think so.
I completely agree his game would translate and still be very good. Where I’m disagreeing is if he actually did grow up playing in this era he would have evolved differently. We saw this with harden himself under McHale. Under an old school guy he worked on his midrange and post up game. But otherwise was always 3s and rims. Influence is important. Jordan grew up in the mid range era. Post ups was what you did and learned because the thought was it was more inductive to winning. If Jordan grew up and was influenced through high school college and the pros that the midrange is less effective then he would have adapted and learned different skills. What I will say is this. We are on such a trajectory path of ultra efficiency of only 3s, fts and shots at the rim that it’s openin up the middle like never before. I predict a player will come along who is amazing at the mid range and correct the course back to slightly more balanced. But the player will have to be as good if not better than Jordan in the midrange to alter our current path of efficiency and shot selection.
Well then, now that's a completely different argument. The previous discussion was basically if we brought prime Jordan from the early 90's into today's game, whether or not his game would translate over and how efficient it would be.
It would be just as efficient imo in your scenario. Although today’s nba IS faster, longer and more athletic. And while we laud old school defenders, today’s defenses have seriously evolved and are much better and more sophisticated. The “hand check” thing is so overrated, imo. Harden gets hand checked on nearly every possession.
If Harden got slammed to the ground ala Jordan VS Detroit Bad Boys though, the league would definitely call flagrant though and that's the type Jordan dealt with regularly against many teams.
Sure, he had to deal with that. But I’m fully capable harden could also if in that era. Harden routinely gets hacked and fouled hard almost every drive and doesn’t receive the whistle. He takes a punishment. But the eras are vastly different. I think today’s nba is much better. I don’t think Jordan’s prime bulls beat the prime warriors. This era is just more talented imo
If Harden wins the chip he’s the best player in the league. He’s head and shoulders above everyone else offensively, is a great post defender, good iso defender and bad rotational defender. His steals and blocks are up. Harden/CP3/Capela are basically Rush and James is Peart.
I wonder how many rings MJ ends up with without guys like BJ Armstrong and John Paxon. It wasn't all done by Mike. Furthermore one could argue as great as he was he never got over the hump himself until the addition of other HOF talent. Any similarities with James? Mike Played D, James is by far the better passer, not even close really. As far as stats, I couldn't find the supporting article, but James' last 4 year stretch rivals anything Mike did. James came into the league, not as the main attraction like Mike, but firmly behind KD and Russ. Many never though he could be more than a 6th man. I understand the 'hold your horses' argument and I agree with it, but I'm still excited when I see James drop a 60 point triple double. Maybe he will be the best ever, maybe not. Glad he's a Rocket.
Umm, I disagree with this. The fouls on Harden in present softy day cannot be compared to the fouls given back in the day of Jordan and Dream. I don't agree with this either. The prime Bulls metrics are basically the same as prime Warriors. The difference however is that Jordan is one of those rare players (like Dream) who takes his game to simply another otherworldly level during playoffs.
If he tried harder on defense he would be the best player in the league. Until that does not happen players like LeBron or KD are above him
