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Former Astros Tracking Thread

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by torque, Apr 4, 2016.

  1. sealclubber1016

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    Through 25 starts he had a 4.17 ERA, the team was 14-11 in those starts, and he was the only starter who was able to go out there every 5th day. That's hardly trash.

    He certainly went full r****d in his last 4 outings (16.62 ERA) but for most of the season he was exactly what you realistically expect from a solid 5th starter. He went out there and gave the team a chance to win more often than not. Not every team can be the 2018 Astros.
     
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  2. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    Right; he had a terrific 12-start stretch. But it was surrounded by pure trash:
    First 7 starts: 5.75 ERA; 1.47 WHIP; 8.39 FIP
    Final 9 starts (10 appearances) 9.07 ERA; 1.86 WHIP; 6.70 FIP.

    He made 28 starts last year; 10 qualified as a "quality start" - and, as you know, that is a very low threshold. Your statement simply isn't true.



    Man, Astros fans love to lionize Mike Fiers - from single-handedly dragging us to the playoffs in '15 to making the '17 championship possible (I've seen both arguments made/defended, here and elsewhere)... He is a bad pitcher who had a few bright moments in 2015 and 2017.
     
  3. Tomstro

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    Giles sporting a 6.08 ERA with toronto
     
  4. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    The Astros won the 2017 World Series. 100% guaranteed. I don't care about how bad Fiers was. I don't care about the division as Astros were winning that regardless. I don't know who pitches instead of Fiers. I don't know if that causes someone to get hurt or come back too soon from an injury. I don't know if Astros acquire someone earlier instead of waiting for Verlander. I know Astros won the 2017 World Series and I am good with that.

    Just as no team has a 100% guarantee to win the World Series this year, Astros would not have been guaranteed to win the World Series last year if the Astros didn't have Fiers. Would the Astros be most likely to win it, yes, but for me, I take the 100% guarantee.
     
  5. sealclubber1016

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    He has a 3.36 ERA this season, a career 4.02 ERA, and a 53-53 career record. Mike Fiers career has been textbook average, he's not a terrible pitcher, he's not a good pitcher. He's just a guy. Lionizing seems to be more than a bit of hyperbole about anything I've said in regards to him.

    And I stand by my original point, he led the team in innings pitched the year we won the World Series. Could we have done better, probably. Could we have done worse, possibly. All I know is we won the World Series, and his regular season contribution was part of that recipe. So I will never, ever, lose a wink of sleep over Josh Hader.
     
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  6. HTown2017Champs

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    Serious question, if we didn't have Fiers last year, do you think another pitcher could have just as easily filled his shoes? I'd say perhaps we re-sign Fister for 2017 without Fiers, and the two had similar stats IIRC. When Fister was with the Red Sox, he had some pretty good games, the most notable being the one against Cleveland where, in spite of giving up the lead off homer to Lindor, he no-hit the Indians for the rest of the complete game. Moot point, but just wondering. If that happened it meant we'd have kept Hader, and we would have never had that cancer (not Fiers, the other guy) on our team.
     
  7. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    Probably in games that Fiers pitched in, we would not see a notable change in wins and losses during the regular season. However, this does not mean the playoff roster is exactly the same with identical health and rest.
     
  8. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    Yes. He was terrible for the majority of his starts/appearances, and the Astros featured one of the greatest team offenses in Major League Baseball history.

    In the grand scheme of things, Mike Fiers was a blip on the 2017 championship run. I have no idea why anyone would argue otherwise.
     
  9. Nook

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    I think it depends on how you look at it.

    On one hand, any small change possibly means that the Astros do not win a title.... especially when it went 7 games. In that way someone can argue that the Fiers deal was worth it.

    However, from a larger baseball stand point, there is no argument that Hader is a VASTLY superior player and will be for years to come. Hader was an excellent pitcher last year and LIKELY would have helped us in the WS last year....... this year Hader is the best reliever in baseball..... players hit below .140 against him, he K's almost 2 batters an inning and can go multiple innings without losing effectiveness.
     
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  10. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    No.

    The Astros won their division by 22 games.
    They secured HFA in the ALDS by 8 games
    They secured HFA in the ALCS by 10 games.
    They did not have HFA in the World Series.

    Mike Fiers accumulated a -.5 bWAR in 2017, and literally did not throw a pitch for the Astros after Sept. 13. He made zero postseason rosters. His performance in the majority of his '17 appearances was objectively bad.

    In no meaningful way did he swing the 2017 season. He made 12 surprisingly good starts, and the Astros went 8-4. They also scored 6.25 r/g in those 8 victories, including final tallies of 8 twice and 7 three times.

    I'm not arguing the merits of the deal. I have no issue with it whatsoever.

    I took issue with this statement, from @Joe Joe: Hate to keep bringing it up Fiers, but Astros might not have won the 2017 World Series if he didn't pitch well when needed in the regular season.

    That's just.... silly. IMO.
     
    #1410 Hey Now!, Sep 11, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
  11. Amshirvani

    Amshirvani Contributing Member

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    Let me know when the Brewers win a world series
     
  12. Nook

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    Sigh..... You don't get it. Many things had to go well for the Astros to win the World Series last year. Among the many things was having Fiers giving the team innings and being healthy when others were not. If you remove Fiers there could be consequences that we do not know. The TEAM last year won a title, a twist or turn one way of the other and we may not have. We won an elimination game in the WS that we may not have won had all the events before not fallen into place.

    This type of "logic" is some what flawed to me, because you can use it to explain or defend any move made last season....... but it is one that is popular.

    As far as defending the trade........ the Astros lost the trade from a baseball perspective.
     
  13. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    No, I 100% get it. Fiers ate innings - the vast majority of which, were bad. They could have thrown any number of pitchers in his place and had nearly the same results.

    You're arguing a Mike Fiers start in early June had an impact on game 7 of the Word Series? Really? Do you maybe want to think about that?...

    Yes, I get it - the old butterfly effect... But Mike Fiers was not average, or even bad, in the majority of his appearances last year - he was objectively awful. If you want to argue had he not melted down when he did, the team might not have felt the need to trade for Verlander, fine. And if that's @Joe Joe's point, I concede because it's valid.

    But beyond that.....
     
  14. Nook

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    I'm not arguing anything...... I am pointing that is a POPULAR argument I hear a lot of people make. I pointed out that I think it is flawed.

    If anything Astros fans need to thank Dallas K, fan and media anger and the Chicago Cubs for trading for Quintana for the Astros title...... no Verlander and there is no title......... everything fell together just right for getting Verlander, including giving the GM a second chance at getting Verlander.
     
  15. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    If you get the butterfly effect, your arguing over this, in your words, is silly.

    I will concede that Fiers did not pitch well over the entire season as indicated by calling him bad in a subsequent post to the one you referenced. The "when needed" was referring to June/July when he pitched well while 3-5 starters were hurt, but this really isn't that integral part of my argument. Every decision Astros made can affect other decisions. Without Fiers, Astros would have needed to acquire someone to start sooner than August 31, 2017 which means there is a chance Astros don't acquire Verlander.

    I think most everyone else gets that I don't think Fiers's accomplishments notably affected the Astros regular season results. To be perfectly clear, if Astros don't make the trade to acquire Gomez and Fiers, there is a less than 100% chance that the hypothetical 2017 Astros postseason rosters are identical to to the actual 2017 Astros postseason rosters, and there is a less than a 100% chance the Astros win the World Series.
     
    #1415 Joe Joe, Sep 11, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
  16. Buck Turgidson

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    Sometimes I think yall argue just for the sake of arguing and the lack of anything else to do.

    I know that's a crazy concept on the internet and all, but still.
     
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  17. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    You guys realize that those arguing the benefits of a mediocre, sub 0 WAR Fiers last year are basically the same thing as arguing for the benefits of a mediocre, sub 0 WAR Giles this year.

    Yes, both are good in select stretches/appearances. But ultimately, their good was nowhere close to outweighing their bad.

    Next year, I’m sure somebody will extol that without Giles, the Astros don’t win the 2018 WS... as long as you can admit that, have at it with the 2017 Fiers love.
     
  18. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    This seems like circumstantial drivel...

    Again, if the 2018 Astros win, will you apply the same logic to Giles?

    Strange stance to plant your flag on,.
     
  19. Buck Turgidson

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    It's actually totally different and you do or should know that. IE: a starter who leads the team in IP for a full season vs a reliever who leaves the team at the ASB.

    Dammit...I want no part of this further conversation. Adios y buena suerte con todos.
     
  20. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    The starter who led the team in innings pitched did nothing after 9/13, and was left off the post-season roster. The reliever who led the team in saves at the time of his departure will also not factor into any stretch run or post-season activity.

    I agree that neither really merits much further discussion...
     

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