1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Do deities from other religions exist?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by arno_ed, Jun 16, 2017.

?

Do deities from other religions exist?

  1. No, they are made up by people

    25.0%
  2. Yes, but they are not really gods

    4.2%
  3. Yes, there are more gods than present in my religion

    12.5%
  4. I do not believe that any god exist

    58.3%
  1. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    88,837
    Likes Received:
    42,765
    As long as humans exist that believe in this god or those gods, they keep existing spiritually and ethereally but not in a body.

    Humans tend to make too many mistakes, they need a higher power to guide them, to preside over them, judge them and punish.

    This has been the case since ancient times.

    If you put it this way, they do not exist, we have made them up but they have powers over us.

    Heck, I would like to believe in a higher Power if I could.
     
    Exiled likes this.
  2. London'sBurning

    London'sBurning Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    4,810

    I'm saying if your claim is true, it would not only be true to you but it would be true to everyone else. It would be testable to show proof that your claim is true. Science is unable prove what isn't there. That's a really tough thing to ask for proof of something that doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist there are no clues to be found of it's existence. So yes, the onus is on you to prove your extraordinary claim with extraordinary evidence.

    Earlier you wrote that your belief system made it easier for you to cope. I don't wish to demonize religious people. When I look at religious communities across all religions, I see a large group of people searching for meaning in their life; People that seek companionship with others looking for greater purpose and with a similar vision of what that purpose is (for better or for worse). I see people that are looking for answers they don't initially have the answers to and find the poetry in their preferred religion as filling in the gaps to those answers. Some of you on this very board may have a spouse you met initially through your church community for all I know. I don't wish to diminish the value in that either. But as touching as those answers provided may bring you, it doesn't mean they're right. The thing is you can still have that sense of companionship and community absent worshipping a deity. Science undermines all religions and has done more for humanity in it's roughly 500 years existence than religions have for thousands. And the chief reasons for that are as follows.

    1. External reality exists even outside our own consciousness. In other words, the universe exists and will continue to exist even when you're not conscious anymore to be a living part of it. It also means that external reality is the same for every single one of us. The laws of physics themselves are the same across the universe.

    2. Science can tell us things about this external reality.

    Instead of atheist though, I'd rather go with being called a naturalist. In that sense, I hold the belief the universe isn't out to fool me. That everything abides by the laws of physics and that the everyday experience I have where nothing spiritual has ever happened is just how things are. I think it'd be nice to have an all knowing, all loving, all merciful creator that personally checks in on me and arranges things as though it's playing chess with my life and is bringing me good fortune when I get that promotion at work, or finally have that threesome with the two hot twins in the neighborhood or win that scratch off lottery ticket. That's my personal deity for ya. Always hooking me up like that. Unfortunately that isn't how it works and deep down I think even theists know it to be true if they did honest "soul" searching. I would love for a deity to exist. It just doesn't appear to be that way. And by extension, there is no afterlife when we die.

    Now that can scare the crap out of you if your life sucks, but I think it also means since this is the one life you get, get your **** together so your life won't suck if that's possible and make the best out of every moment. All of a sudden because this is the only life I get, that means every finite moment matters. It makes me not want to waste my present ruminating on shitty moments in the past and instead try and create good experiences every day, if possible. Because this finite life of mine is all I'll get. That also means those finite number of times I'll get to spend with my grandparents, parents, siblings, best friends, and pets are all the more priceless, precisely because someday I will die and everyone will too. It makes me want to be kinder and more compassionate to those very people, because I'd rather minimize the finite number of conflicts I'd ever have with them and would rather have as many great moments with those loved ones instead, if possible. It also inspires me to take action when someone I personally know is suffering, because I'd rather my friends have as few shitty moments in their finite life, if possible. It inspires me to be kinder to strangers, because they too are just trying to get by on this confusing planet, doing their best to make sense with what limited experiences they've attained in their limited lifetime.

    Pertaining your thoughts on prayer making you feel better, I'd simply say, science has shown prayer / meditation have enormous benefits on overall wellbeing. You would probably find similar peace practicing controlled breathing and controlled thinking while not thinking about your personal deity anyways. Give it a try. That would be a personal science experiment to conduct. Is it the act of controlling your thoughts and breathing that's giving you benefit, or is it your personal deity taking action? Is it you improving your well being, or is it a greater power doing it for you? I think you do a disservice to yourself by choosing the greater power personally.

    I've said similar in a different thread about religion, but I really do think if a creator were to exist, it would rather we appreciate the universe it created as it really is, instead of what makes us feel comfortable instead but is wrong. Humanity collectively has made far more gains by doing the former over the latter.
     
    #62 London'sBurning, Jun 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  3. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    47,151
    Likes Received:
    35,984
    When I see a bunch of religious people, I see a bunch of people who were brainwashed as children by parents and would be agnostic/atheist/deist otherwise.

    Majoirty of people are the religion they are because they were born into it. Shows how much people base their faith on slipping out of the right vagina than actual merit in truth.
     
    London'sBurning likes this.
  4. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    21,708
    Likes Received:
    18,485
    A catholic priest openly said he would most likely be a Muslim if he was born into that religion. Yet he is a devoted Catholic. Is he brainwashed?

    Personally speaking, science explain things in great details but it can't touch my personal experience to any good degree yet. How come my mind shift into different moods randomly and at time is so focus that I can understand things that doesn't seem possible or have an awe inspiring experience (think drug and being high) that cannot be understood? Those state of "my" mind can only be personally experienced, not measured, transferred or explained. As long as that is the case, I can see room for religion.
     
  5. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    47,151
    Likes Received:
    35,984
    I can see room for wonderment and curiosity. I can see room for "there might be is a creator?". But any person who has a certain answer is fooling themselves on this matter.

    I think most atheists would say there is no certain answer. Most would say there is no evidence of a creator(our existence isn't evidence by itself) which isn't the same as saying there is CERTAINLY no creator.

    The three Abrahamic religions claim certainty and two of them claim their way is the only way otherwise eternal suffering. Coincidence that those same two are responsible for the most religious violence in recorded human history?
     
    #65 fchowd0311, Jun 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  6. London'sBurning

    London'sBurning Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    4,810
    What you don't understand or perceive does not causally mean, therefore god(s). It means you (and for that matter everyone else regarding consciousness too) doesn't know the full scope of it yet. It's one of those hanging fruits higher up on the tree of knowledge that no one has been able to grab quite yet. But there's still more we understand about consciousness by the scientific method than through any religion and that understanding is only going to improve.
     
    #66 London'sBurning, Jun 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  7. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    21,708
    Likes Received:
    18,485
    I think it's much more than wondering or curiosity - it's direct experience from a personal level. When you experience something directly, no one can ever say anything that would invalidate your experience. Furthermore, no amount of science can quantify what you experience and there is no way to communicate and share what exactly you experienced. Our language is too limited to express our experience and our science cannot see our experience (not yet at least). (of course, you could be hallucinating and such and there are plenty of that, but I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about very clear direct experience).

    Now, that's very different from believing in a creator. It is an experience that is hard to comprehend and share but is known to you. Perhaps some religious folks immediately link that as evidence of some creator or higher being - which creator then is probably largely depending on your upbringing.

    I think the level of personal experience is real and real for all of us. How we handle that is where it can go in many directions. And where it goes I believe is based on us layering on top of the experience through our own interpretation and understanding. This is where faith is created I think. I personally think it's delusional, but not in the sense of someone completely brain washed, but that it's quite reasonable that someone can only understand something within the means of what they have personally internalized up to that point. The delusion is that layering on top, instead of experiencing it directly with no layering.
     
  8. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    21,708
    Likes Received:
    18,485
    I agree for the most part but not so confident about the last part. I have no idea what is consciousness, except that it's there. And I think that's the case in Science today and maybe for a long long long time.
     
  9. London'sBurning

    London'sBurning Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    4,810
    Guess I just have more faith in humanity to figure it out than you do. They know consciousness is related to the brain. When the brain shuts off, consciousness goes with it. Through fMRI scans they're able to see actual thoughts form in specific regions of the brain. You have medical neurologists offering their insights on top of all the other fields of research related to the brain and conscious thought. They know that since our own bodies are made up of the same constituent particles on the standard model, (electrons and quarks for us), that whatever theory of consciousness exists, must also abide by the physics established from the standard model, which is one of the most tested and accurate theories to date.

    So we already have a framework where whatever theory that does eventually explain consciousness should also play by the rules with the laws of physics. That eliminates all theories that violate physics by default. On top of that though, scientists have also been able to narrow down specific regions of the brain that are responsible for different cognitive thoughts and bodily responses.

    So to say consciousness is beyond humanity's grasp isn't accurate. While we don't understand the full scope of consciousness yet, like putting together a puzzle, we've figured out some pieces to the overall puzzle. I think over time, only more pieces will be added. Not less or stagnation.
     
  10. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    21,708
    Likes Received:
    18,485
    I didn't say it's beyond humanity grasp - in fact, I think human already have a grasp of it among religions. Religion has a head start. Science just started tackling it seriously recently, with renewed interest due to advancement in tools to understand the brain in details.

    I think philosophy have been thinking about Consciousness for 2000 years. Eastern religion (Buddhism for example) has worked on it, debated it among themselves for 2500 years and they do have an amazing detailed mental model of it, but still with open questions and is incomplete (basically come back to yes, we know it, we see it, we haven't a clue why, how but we really don't care about that as that doesn't matter in our religion so much). Science about 50 years.

    I have a limited understanding, but this is what I know so far about the Buddhist understanding. Buddhists argue that there is pure Conscious (not God) that has always existed and is everywhere (similar to Gravity) and that it is not of material world and cannot be detected with today scientific tools, but can be known through mind introspection and has been known to many that does exactly that. It is real to them and "measurable" through their own mind (1st person view). It is described as radiant, alert, and extremely clear and as the only, for lack of term, force in nature that is not dependent and has no cause. Maybe that's all hogwash, but I find it quiet interesting. Again, it is not complete as they never care to answer the question why it existed --- the question has been asked, their answer is vaguely no one can ever know and it is not important to have an answer to that w.r.t to their religion (or really practice of stopping suffering). I believe the Buddha himself suggested it's too complex (even in his enlighten state where he was supposedly was living within pure Conscious). They do attempt to answer what/who has it, but they do not have agreement even on that. Not very satisfying to the curious mind, but that's as far as that will go within Buddhism.

    Science deny immaterial world today which is fine and completely understandable - it cannot yet deal with anything outside of the 3rd person observable world. If indeed Consciousness is outside of the material world, Science can never understand it. That's it, we are done with Science ever getting there. I personally don't believe (my faith talking) that's the case... I like to think that the invisible world today is just not yet detectable, but we'll get there someday.

    If Consciousness is not outside of today known material world, we'll get there sooner. However, even if so, I think we get to a point where we will get stuck for a long time. An example is gravity. We have a very good understanding of gravity, but yet we don't understand the subtle aspect of it. It is everywhere, we know it very well, but it doesn't work within our models at the very subtle level (or very big level). Still a mystery.

    I think Science is at the very early edge of investigating Consciousness and there is no solid theory out there today. There are some very interesting theories (I would call it suggestions), but to me, they don't even approach the level of religious understanding. I have doubt that we can get very far in Science on this subject anytime soon, but hoping to be very wrong.

    One of the theory: PDF: Consciousness - here, there but not everywhere by Koch and Tononi

    Koch met with Buddhists (2013 i think) to present his theory, ask and answer questions. He is completely on the side of Science, but it's very cool to see the open-minded approach from him.
     
  11. London'sBurning

    London'sBurning Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    4,810
    I think it's more likely consciousness is an emergent property on the macroscopic scale like heat is. I also think consciousness must abide by the two most accurate scientific theories we have to date, Quantum Field Theory and General Relativity. I don't think GR will have any sway in any theory of consciousness, but I do believe QFT will, if only because it describes particles, which our own bodies are made up of. And even when conscious, our bodies abide by the laws of physics 100% of the time. When we die, our bodies still abide by the laws of physics 100% of the time. There is no transfer of our consciousness to a different plane of existence. There isn't even a 1% transfer. 100% ourselves abide by physics. I don't think Buddhism offers any better insight than science does since as you wrote, it provides untestable theory and it wrongly asserts that the universe basically exists for conscious beings to think inside of it. That the universe spent 13.8 billion years for beings like ourselves to emerge from it and that all the vastness of it, is solely for conscious beings to exist in it. As much as I like to feel purpose in this world, I think it's a bit conceitful to assume that this...



    was all made for me to bear witness to it in the short human lifetime I'm provided. Don't get me wrong, I think it's pretty special to be conscious and have personal experience and I still feel purpose in this world, but I'm just saying, I want us to get consciousness right. Not what I hope it to be, but what it actually is.

    I could see getting a well thought out theory of it solving all mental illness and treating, if not curing neurological disorders like epilepsy. Humanity would be better off for it. So let's get it right with testable theory and add to our existing science. Not choose untestable ethos that is fun to think about, but goes against our existing science.
     
  12. Exiled

    Exiled Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2013
    Messages:
    4,879
    Likes Received:
    1,182
    You're answering your own question,things shouldn't end this way [​IMG]


    but probably It take a lot of faith to have no faith .
     
  13. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    34,061
    Likes Received:
    13,409
    Sorry for the lateness. Anyway, we can disagree. I'm not even making an argument one way or another. I'm just pointing out that some adherents to the various religions would dispute your assertion they are all worshiping the same God. Some take offense to that notion. Obviously, others like the idea. As to your example, it's probably less common, but there are Protestants who say Catholics aren't real Christians, and Catholics who say Protestants have fallen away from the Church. Probably most of even these would stop short of saying the Protestant God is different from the Catholic God, but would instead say the other party is seriously misled, to the point of risking perdition. I'm not arguing any of this. I'm an atheist and I think none of us are worshiping a God of any sort (or I could say every single individual is worshiping their own unique god). I'm just relating my American experiences with the Church.
     
  14. arno_ed

    arno_ed Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    7,932
    Likes Received:
    1,927
    Ah ok. Thanks for the explenation. That makes it clear.
     
  15. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    43,148
    Likes Received:
    25,188
    Catholics have deities in the form of patron saints, which you could argue shares many similarities in practice with the greco-roman pantheon.

    Protestants don't care what the pope says or does so you don't have that relationship. They both (and any other Christian denomination for that matter) can't seem to agree what the father/son/holy spirit really means.

    Potential interpretations of Gods inside a seemingly monotheistic religion and so its practiced that way over the years.
     
  16. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    48,669
    Likes Received:
    17,295
    I wonder if @cml750 will come back and respond to all of the proof that he was mistaken or had received poor training in his understanding of Islam?
     
    Exiled likes this.
  17. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2002
    Messages:
    13,971
    Likes Received:
    1,700
    Why it take a lot of faith to have no faith? I can see no evidence of the God(s) for the various religions, which led me to think it is highly unlikely that they exist, I am completely open to the God(s) showing up in the sky to prove himself like in the old days. It takes a lot of faith to belief in something you can not prove.
     
  18. Exiled

    Exiled Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2013
    Messages:
    4,879
    Likes Received:
    1,182
    recap of how debates goes between Believers and Nonbelievers when it come to the existence of God, for over 100 billions people who had died at least on this planet , i can bet those thoughts either ways had crossed their minds more than once

    Believers :every little or massive things we witness indicates the the existence of an ultimate power of God and those are his magnificent creations and enough evidence ............ (faith)

    Non- : i don't see a thing ...i need my spiritual glasses , i just belief in an ultimate random power of no purpose and btw i'm superiorly rational/physiologically oriented and waiting for more discoveries !...........(faiths)
     
  19. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2002
    Messages:
    13,971
    Likes Received:
    1,700
    If the God(s) in religion stated that they created the universe and then let it progress on its own,then I would be much more likely be believe in it. The more omnipotent the God(s) are, the less likely it is true.

    God is all powerful and all present throughout time and space, that would mean everything happening is according to God(s) plan. As an example, the Jewish God created the snake so it can tempt eve.
     
  20. TheRealist137

    TheRealist137 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Messages:
    33,340
    Likes Received:
    19,175
    The guy spews stupid garbage and then hides when he is clearly called out upon it.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now