1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Defending freedom of speech is important, but you should know what happened then give a speech.

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Emanon, Oct 9, 2019.

  1. Pizza_Da_Hut

    Pizza_Da_Hut I put on pants for this?

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2003
    Messages:
    11,323
    Likes Received:
    4,118
    To assume one begets the other is a large leap. The issues you listed, rioting, looting, violence happen with protesting in general sometimes. Even protesting in this country leads to that from time to time, does that mean we as a nation should pass a constitutional amendment to make protesting illegal? Hell no. Morey can support the act of protesting (or just what they are protesting for) without supporting the off-target effects of violence and such. By all measure, that's precisely what his tweet did.

    Also, let's not fall victim to the idea that the outrage here stems from those off-target effects. The outrage, when not faux-bot outrage, is the idea that anyone could question the CCP, be it a Chinese nationalist or not. You're telling me a president who is offended by his likeness being similar to a honey loving bear has the maturity and poise to be outraged by the violence in his streets? Come on, it's all about how it makes him look bad.
     
    malakas likes this.
  2. YallMean

    YallMean Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Messages:
    14,277
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Joe Tsai touched upon it - a 3rd rail issue to China. IMO, that prescription just barely scractched the surface of what is really going on there. Freedom of what? I am sure he didn't intend to support fanatic behaviors. There is necessary mesasure in reaction to brutality during a peaceful demonstration, then there are downright unlawful acts like beating by-standers with different opinions that yours. This thing has taken to the extreme that there can be only one voice in HK, if you dare to disagree with us, you are the commies. Is that what Morey was supporting?

    No a lof of stuff he did not intend by that little tweet. But, damn, leave that Mike Pompeo and Ted Cruz, focus on basketball please as a damn GM of an execellent basketball organization please.
     
    dlite316 likes this.
  3. Pizza_Da_Hut

    Pizza_Da_Hut I put on pants for this?

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2003
    Messages:
    11,323
    Likes Received:
    4,118
    Again, you're not talking about something in principle, you're talking about practice. You can support something in principle while not condoning what comes of it when it's not used in practice correctly. That's like wanting to outlaw Catholicism because Priests have touched children in the past, or saying that the bible has nothing to offer because it's been perverted before. I'm an agnostic and I can still see utility in the doctrine, even if I'm not infatuated with the practice.

    And if Morey said "Jesus had a couple of great ideas" I wouldn't get mad, hell, I'd support it.
     
  4. YallMean

    YallMean Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Messages:
    14,277
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Yes, I know ... one of the bedrocks of this very nation is freedom to be able to speak about things without the fear of being persecuted. That is the principle that founded this very nation.

    BUT ...

    There is no persecution here. It's the 4B market with their view and perception, coming from perspectives many of Americans including Morey cannot even begin to understand. Ashleym would like to make it out to be free vs oppression, but it is way way more nuanced and complicated than that. "China Town" - that's the best anaology comes to my mind - remember that line at the end of the movie - everyone comes to police to tell their versions of the story.

    If we continue to stand on that the principle line - standing by I can say what I want to say in a political speech about anyone including China - there will be no good result coming out of this. It's not doing a service to the cause, to our own well-fare, and to the ones that have already out of jobs because of this.

    Come to clarify what exactly he (Morey) meant and what he didn't think through, what he didn't intend to support --- PR and PR. How hard is it? No more "I am sorry ... very regrettable" word play, this would only make it worse from their perspectives.
     
    dlite316 likes this.
  5. malakas

    malakas Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    20,167
    Likes Received:
    15,380
    I see zero complication at all.
    Oppressed people who have their voting rights and their freedom of speech taken away and constantly eroded, are protesting. Simple as that.

    Their right for fair trial was under serious threat and they were forced to come under face recognition stasi surveillance.

    Things are simple.
     
    noppeper, bulkatron and Pizza_Da_Hut like this.
  6. YallMean

    YallMean Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Messages:
    14,277
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    That's a bit too extreme, isn't it. When 2 million people go out on the street complaining about stuff, you have to listen to them. They must feel strong about it. But, I fail to get the logic that all Chinese are commies, beating the reporter from mainland, setting fires in metro stations, etc., etc.

    I don't live in HK, but was in HK at the beginning of July. Things were still quite tamed at that point. I don't exactly know what took to the worse turn and violence. However, I do follow what is going on there closely. I read the China side of the reporting, I read apply daily, singtao daily, I read Guardian, etc. etc., so I am aware a lot of stuff you would want to tell me.
     
    dlite316 likes this.
  7. malakas

    malakas Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    20,167
    Likes Received:
    15,380
    Not all Chinese are commies. Many chinese intellectuals are right now being tortured or under house arrest because they are pro democratic.

    Listen in the end we must all know this.

    Democracy isn't only a right but a priviledge and a responsibillity.
    It has to be won with sweat, tears and blood on the streets.

    And even for all of us in the west, not take it for granted. We have to be constantly vigilant and protect it with all our might.
     
    noppeper likes this.
  8. YallMean

    YallMean Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Messages:
    14,277
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Yes to better civil rights.

    But I am reserved on other stuff. What do you win with that much cost at the end? HK relies on China on ... electricity, food, water, economy ...

    You are letting the extreme wing (23 year olds - really) take over of what would be a progressive approach. That I am strongly concerned with.
     
  9. malakas

    malakas Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    20,167
    Likes Received:
    15,380
    They don't want independence they only want free democratic elections, where they can vote who they want and not pre approved candidates by a dictator for life.
    The only reason that there is violence, is because freedom isn't gifted by dictators.

    Au contraire all absolute regimes have a similar pattern: they come extremely hard and even harder under the slightest challenge to their authority because they can't afford not to. They have to stop any resistance.
     
  10. YallMean

    YallMean Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Messages:
    14,277
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    They have not cut off power to you from Dayawan, haven't they? They are taking it a bit easy to this situation by their standards. Not so much to Morey. That's why Morey, Rockets and NBA is being taken out to such an extent. However, they do not want to be perceived to be what you just said in HK.

    You gotta understand the politics side of the things to get what you want. Don't alienate what you should have united.

    Extradition bill - do not want - ok that was not such a big thing they cannot let it go. On the other hand, I want to ask you and other HK posters here, is the anger only about the extradition bill, or more about displeasure, frustration with the rise of mainland (the rush to HK to make the living more expensive) and the decline of HK economically?

    You have to know what you want, and how you get it.
     
  11. malakas

    malakas Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    20,167
    Likes Received:
    15,380
    The extradition bill isn't such a simple issue. China has been already accused of abducting people of the streets and put them in the mainland to "dissappear". That was one of the reason why HKers were so adamant about it. It would legitimise the power for the CCP to politically pressure the civilians under fear of torture and death. After all there is no fair trial in the mainland while there is in HK.

    Mainland China and HK were not supposed to be united politically anyway. China has signed an international treaty that guarantees democratic rights to HK for many years in the future, something that they are illegally breaking.
     
    Texanasiafan likes this.
  12. YallMean

    YallMean Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Messages:
    14,277
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Based on my knowledge, the extradition bill was a thing they would have let it go. Practically, they have ways to "move" whoever they want off of HK rather than through HK courts.

    In my view, the extradition bill was a thing exploited by the extreme wing youth and exaggerated to rally other people. The whole free vs oppression is a bit overblown, and a bit ideological catering for western tastes for a version of the story easy to sell. I read Joshua Wong's op ed piece in NYT.

    So here is the confusion that always bothers me -- why are you saying free trial in HK court, what does that have to the extradition bill? Extradition in this context to move someone off HK through HK court to China for breaking Mainland law. Are you confused it with the extra-judication of a HKer for breaking HK law in China? I don't think this is what the extradition bill about. To be honest, that inciting such a protest making it to be free vs oppression is what I didn't understand and perceived as pretense for wanting to be separated from China in the mainland.

    By united, I mean civil liberty is not only a HK thing, so why are you alienating the mainlanders by ... extreme statements and acts to put them on your opposite side? But perhaps it is about HK being separated from China all along - this is what I think the extreme wing is going after and most mainlanders believe.
     
    #192 YallMean, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  13. malakas

    malakas Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    20,167
    Likes Received:
    15,380
    No because something that happened rarely would be legitimised and would be given the power and authority to be used mass scale.

    How is it overblown when China is illegally denying HK the right to democracy?
     
  14. YallMean

    YallMean Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Messages:
    14,277
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    So here is the confusion that always bothers me -- why are you saying free trial in HK court, what does that have to the extradition bill? Extradition in this context to move someone off HK through HK court to China for breaking Mainland law. Are you confused it with the extra-judication of a HKer for breaking HK law in China? I don't think this is what the extradition bill about. To be honest, that inciting such a protest making it to be free vs oppression is what I didn't understand and perceived as pretense for wanting to be separated from China in the mainland.

    For one there has not been step in of interference with the independence of judiciary in HK - people were arrested and let go right away by the HK courts right away. A authoritatrian government with a strong hand would not have let that happen, would it?

    Step back and take a deep breath -- think about it - did you all overact and making it more difficult. I wouldn't trust Joseph Wong with his scripted ideologic stuff coming out of a book he just read.
     
    #194 YallMean, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
    dlite316 likes this.
  15. malakas

    malakas Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    20,167
    Likes Received:
    15,380
    Because HK has different laws than mainland China.
    In mainland China it is even illegal to say anything against the CCP or they will track you down.

    They wanted to send off HKers who have broken MAINLAND China law off to mainland china where there isn't even fair trials.

    That's the gist of it and why the average person couldn't tolerate it. And make no mistake, it was a grassroot PEACEFUL movement at the beginning.

    But if you want more information and details you are better off asking the actual HKers in the forum.
    @ashleyem @kanariya
     
    Pizza_Da_Hut likes this.
  16. YallMean

    YallMean Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Messages:
    14,277
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    They still can get people off HK for breaking China's anti-government law and try him/her in mainland w/o extradition bill. The extradition bill was more about going after the corrupted or perhaps even the cast-outs in their view from making HK a safe haven for those.

    Ok. I thought you were from HK.

    I am an international lawyer - so I see these issues differently and don't just skim it over like many do.
     
    malakas likes this.
  17. malakas

    malakas Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    20,167
    Likes Received:
    15,380
    yes they can and they have but that was done in a small scale. If this law passed through in effect the whole HK would be under the same laws as mainland China that are highly undemocratic and oppressive - a new imposed reign of terror for a place that has enjoyed many liberties not allowed to mainland. It doesn't matter what the "justification" of the extradiction bill was, in effect it would work like that.

    No I aren't and unfortunately you do seem to need to have a law degree nowadays to understand the details.
     
  18. YallMean

    YallMean Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Messages:
    14,277
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    That was precisely what made me - Huh - from the outset of this movement. If anything an extradition bill in this context means that they recognize HK is an independent judiciary from China. An oppressive government wouldn't even need that bill to deal with a territory deemed as under their control.

    By that bill, they were not trying to go after average HKer, that was not the intention. Could it have been exploited? Sure. But their stance (now and future) would not have changed even w/o extradition bill. Again, that could have been resolved and they would have let it go. This issue should have been a limited issue in my view in the grand scheme of things.
     
  19. malakas

    malakas Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    20,167
    Likes Received:
    15,380
    Maybe that's because you are a lawyer and by your occupation focuses on the letter and spirit of the law.
    But an absolute oppressive regime only needs a window to abuse laws. If before they abducted only the most outspoken people now that would give them the authority to send off everyone who said anything bad without a fair trial to rot in prison. There are COUNTLESS examples of this.

    We shouldn't equate how a free democratic country would implement a law, with how the CCP would. The difference in practice is night and day.
     
  20. YallMean

    YallMean Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Messages:
    14,277
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Sure. So you now see why extradition bill has nothing to do with encroachment on HK's judicial system and why I say it's overblown and exaggerated.

    Onto your next point, abuse of their law onto HKer, a fear that is real and deep with many HKers (who escaped China in different periods). Is that a reason to incite such violent protests to disrupt the normalcy of the city to an extreme? Is that concern not clear and present ever since 1997. So why now, and why so extreme. Now you see why you shouldn't let the extreme wing youth take it over and should opt for a progressive approach. Don't just ask Ashlem, there are other HKers are in the progressive camp, many of them. There should not be just one voice!
     
    dlite316 likes this.

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now