1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Conservative Utopia 2.0: Oklahoma

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Major, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,383
    Likes Received:
    15,808


    Looks like they learned nothing from Kansas.

    Tax Cuts Put Oklahoma In A Bind. Now Gov. Fallin Wants To Raise Taxes

    Oklahoma taxpayers are fed up.

    Riding high on the oil boom of the late 2000s, the state followed the Kansas model and slashed taxes. But the promised prosperity never came. In many cases, it was just the opposite.

    Around 20 percent of Oklahoma's schools now hold classes just four days a week. Last year, Highway Patrol officers were given a mileage limit because the state couldn't afford to put gas in their tanks. Medicaid provider rates have been cut to the point that rural nursing homes and hospitals are closing, and the prisons are so full that the director of corrections says they're on the brink of a crisis.

    In her State of the State address Monday, Gov. Mary Fallin expressed the state's frustration.

    "We have two clear choices," she said. "We can continue down a path of sliding backwards, or we can choose the second path, which is to say 'Enough is enough! We can do better! We deserve better! Our children deserve better, too!' "

    Many of the tax cuts and subsequent revenue failures have happened on Fallin's watch. Now she wants to fix it, and she's gotten behind a large coalition of business leaders who have come up with a plan to raise taxes and enact reforms.

    "It's math," said banker David Rainbolt, a leader of the group known as Step Up Oklahoma. "You can look at the problems we have and realize that there's not sustainable revenue going forward. This problem will occur over and over and over again in a commodity-based economy like ours unless we create revenue streams that create stability."

    But there's a problem. When you pass a tax cut in the state of Oklahoma, it may as well be permanent. In the early 1990s, in reaction to a tax increase, voters passed a ballot measure requiring 75 percent of the Legislature to vote in favor of any revenue hike.

    This year, that supermajority requirement has given the tiny Democratic minority in Oklahoma the power to derail any plan. And even though the Step Up scheme meets many of their demands, House Minority Leader Steve Kouplen thinks it's just not enough.

    "A drowning man will grab any lifeline, whether it's a good one or not," he said. "One has been thrown to us. We think it needs to be tweaked, and we think some true compromise needs to take place to change it."

    Democrats believe oil and gas companies have gotten rich while poor Oklahomans have borne the brunt of the cuts to state services. The Step Up plan, they say, doesn't do enough to protect the poor from paying to fix a mess they didn't make.

    Rainbolt and the bipartisan business coalition that introduced the compromise plan say the state is in a mess and there is no easy way to fix it. They point to the fact that when they created the plan, business leaders from competing industries sat down at a table to find a solution and everyone had to give.

    "We'd created something that no one in the room liked every part of but that everybody in the room agreed would move us forward." Rainbolt said. "We thought it was saleable to the Legislature, and it appears that it is."

    But the spirit of compromise hasn't reached lawmakers yet. They're now in their second special session trying to pass a budget for the current fiscal year.

    Lobbying is fierce for the Step Up plan, and leaders in the Legislature say they're hoping to vote on it next week. So far, the Democratic minority in the Oklahoma House of Representatives says it needs more work before it will vote in favor.

    At this point, the gridlock continues.
     
  2. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    34,620
    Likes Received:
    33,563
    Luckily we will run this experiment again, for the whole country! It's bound to finally work.
     
  3. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    34,061
    Likes Received:
    13,411
    The other shoe to drop on federal tax reform is that states are going to have to rejigger their taxes to accommodate it. State income taxes generally piggyback off of federal. So when federal changes the way it treats, say, depreciation, states will inherit that treatment unless they do something. So many states will probably have to do something legislatively to change their tax codes and balance their budgets. If there was ever going to be a crisis to make OK (or any state) rethink it's tax code, this is it. It may not be this year. The tax reform widened the tax base, and the states don't really know if they should expect their revenues to go up or down. Once they do a cycle though, there will probably be a lot of changes everywhere.
     
  4. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    43,149
    Likes Received:
    25,188
    California is awash with yuge crippling debt, high taxes and the non English speaking masses.

    Illinois is the adopted home to a thug President imposter and non-stop gang violence

    Thank literal God that states like Oklahoma and Kansas are making America great and red again...

    ...until the holy war begins in Israel, Jesus rises again and ends humanity as we know it!
     
    R0ckets03 likes this.
  5. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,499
    Likes Received:
    581
    Decreasing tax revenues during an unsustainable late 2000's oil boom only to realize your finances are out of whack
    as prices normalize is not a failure of a system but a poorly informed understanding of the business cycle.

    This has nothing to do with lower taxes, less regulation and its benefits.
     
  6. Newlin

    Newlin Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2015
    Messages:
    8,031
    Likes Received:
    9,727
    Can't they just borrow more and more money. Just let your kids and grand kids deal with the debt. What's the problem?
     
    Nook, Phillyrocket and B-Bob like this.
  7. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,383
    Likes Received:
    15,808
    Except, you know, it does - given that the cause of all their problems is that they lowered taxes.
     
    Lar, Nook, Phillyrocket and 5 others like this.
  8. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2002
    Messages:
    13,971
    Likes Received:
    1,701
    No, you have it wrong, tax cut is the solution to all of life's problems, twice on Sundays!
     
  9. Anticope

    Anticope Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2001
    Messages:
    2,020
    Likes Received:
    1,217
    My question is always this: where is there (be it a state or country) a place where very low taxes and little government regulation has flourished? Where is this libertarian utopia that many believe should be the model for the US? The problem seems to be that there is a very large percentage of people in this country who have certain ideologies that they worship and will never constructively evaluate or consider any information that contradicts what they believe. On top of that, these same groups of people refuse to EVER compromise on their beliefs at all and that's how you end up with states where they can't even fund basic government services.

    What's likely to happen in this scenario is that the Oklahoma government in its current form will find some way to get tax revenue levels back close to where they were previously to actually fund services like public schools. Then, along will come more very conservative politicians in the near future claiming to have all the answers with more tax cuts and deregulation and the voters will fall for it once again and they'll do this whole dance over again.
     
    Phillyrocket and CometsWin like this.
  10. Purvis's shorts

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    131
    I hope they get on their hands and knees and beg the federal government to bail them out.

    I don't care whether they get bailed out or not, it would just be awesome to watch.
     
  11. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,499
    Likes Received:
    581
    I think you're bright enough to know what I mean and not respond with a quip. Its akin to you buying telling your wife to
    quit working because you get a non-reoccuring bonus at work. It will end badly.

    There is a large problem brewing in underfunded cities and states mainly due to underfunded pension/healthcare liabilities.
    Promising municipal workers raises and better benefits in exchange for voter turnout/support, mayors have put these cities
    on the edge of bankruptcy.

    And there is another game being played with city/state pensions. In most countries Pension's long term return assumptions
    can only be like 3-4% whereas in the US most are showing an 8% long term return assumption by loading up on private equity
    by skewing their blended returns using not that long historical numbers in a dynamic industry.

    No way long-term these Pension funds hit their numbers and are massively underfunded. Will end up like the cities now
    that can't raise taxes but are 'fee'ing the hell out of residents with inflated trash and water charges.

    Massive voting blocks of municipal workers and the promises given to them and the future obligations taken
    is not a horrendous problem compared with lowering taxes based on the false expectations of continued upward growth in a
    speculative industry is not a big deal.

    What's so bad about a city and state trying to take LESS of people's money? Ok they made a dumb mistake and oil prices fell
    along with revenue. So raise taxes back up but at least they tried to allow people to keep more of their money.

    I'm just shocked at how trying this is so horrible to some people?! Do all of you work for the government or as teachers/pensioners
    or something?

    I just don't get it.
     
  12. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,499
    Likes Received:
    581
    The United States until for most of its existence. The massive regulatory framework has slowly built up in the last 50 years
    and taxation mainly began around WWII and then has increased through a barrage of other taxes like excise taxes, cigarette taxes,
    liquor taxes, or other revenue like tickets for seat belts, increased fees for permitting etc. One could say the greatest advancement
    in world history happened in the Industrial Revolution in the late 1800's as well as the Tech Boom of the last 40 years in which in both
    cases were not very regulated at all because they were moving so fast the government couldn't react and attempt to control it.

    On the flip side where has lots of regulation and high taxes flourished over long periods of time?
     
  13. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,499
    Likes Received:
    581
    What I do think that is atrocious and i'm sure all can agree on it is the pressure on states/cities by companies to get tax
    breaks/benefits to move to a city. It's terrible that cities/states that are near bankruptcy are competing in a race to the bottom
    to give away benefits to companies so some mayor can say he brought Tesla or Toyota there.

    Also allowing Billionaire sports owners to hold cities hostage and use municipal debt to fund private sports stadiums is
    pretty terrible for all.
     
    London'sBurning and B-Bob like this.
  14. larsv8

    larsv8 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2007
    Messages:
    21,663
    Likes Received:
    13,913
    Because it doesn't work.

    It has failed over and over again.

    It is counter-intuitive to keep trying this.

    And you are asking me and my generation for a loan to do it today nationwide.
     
    Phillyrocket and B-Bob like this.
  15. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    34,620
    Likes Received:
    33,563
    Wait, I love my country as much as anyone, but this is a very weird statement. We did not flourish in the years after we broke from the British empire. Moreover, the term "we" has to include our native peoples and the many slaves brought to our country, if we're going to have an honest history. They didn't flourish, though our government and the wealthy certainly did by the spoils of their, respectively, land and free labor.

    The Civl War was definitely not an era of flourishing. Then, some robber barons really flourished in the gilded age, mos def.

    Now, our resources, pluck, and great physical distance of remove, helped us emerge from the World Wars less decimated and more mighty than most of the rest of the world, that is true. We flourished like nobody's business from 1945 to 1965. Honestly been kind of floundering and building toward another civil war ever since. Our government understood as of the mid-60's that the Soviet Union was not much of an actual threat. When our people don't have a serious uniting threat, they either exploit one another near to death, scream at one another near to death, or hit one another over the head near to death. It's really our history, LOL.

    We are a wonderful experiment, and long may we last. I hope we can flourish and climb the ranks of healthy indicators for a populace (% in jail, % child mortality, etc.) in the future.
     
    FranchiseBlade and KingCheetah like this.
  16. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2000
    Messages:
    19,155
    Likes Received:
    14,307
    Are you saying that Oklahoma and Kansas are really in a good situation and they just don't realize it?
     
  17. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    34,620
    Likes Received:
    33,563

    [​IMG]
     
    London'sBurning and Rashmon like this.
  18. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,383
    Likes Received:
    15,808
    Or like cutting federal taxes in middle an economic upswing. But of course, you fully support that. The GOP doesn't care when or how taxes are cut - they just do it because "tax cuts = good" without any further thought. And your posts on this forum are fully aligned with that.
     
  19. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,383
    Likes Received:
    15,808
    Where on earth did you learn your history? WTF? BTW, about 33% of our history and much of the time period of your "success period" was built on enslaving people and generating free labor. I guess that's the lack of regulation you refer to?
     
  20. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

    Joined:
    May 15, 2000
    Messages:
    28,028
    Likes Received:
    13,046
    Every first world country.

    One could say the lives and families destroyed by a lack of laws and regulations are irrelevant to your Pollyanna understanding of history.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now