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Corona Virus: The Unravelling of "libertarianism"?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Mar 28, 2020.

  1. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Many have thought that it would be the coming climate disruption that would start the unraveling of the "neo-liberal" "libertarian" , market fundamentalist capitalistic system. It could turn out that the Corona Virus will be the first blow.
    If you view Corona as a trial run for climate emergencies it does not look good for market solutions.

    Markets alone have been relatively helpless. Government whether democratic or authoritarian must step up big time. Capital markets seize up. Not enough consumer demand. Business's failing. Not enough ventilators, personal protective equipment and the government has to step in. Private business too worried about profit, or intellectual property or having excess equipment or employees not being utilized that decreases profits. Can't have any excess ventilators sitting around not bein in use, you know. It is not enough just to make vague statement encouraging the population not to associate in large crowds.
     
  2. peleincubus

    peleincubus Member

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    Apparently you didn’t see the guy buying and hoarding all of the hand sanitizer. People have the solutions but the commies are shutting them down.
     
  3. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    The main purpose of government is security. Internal police as well as military against outside enemies. That concept can be expanded to natural disasters and contagious diseases.

    I would think most libertarians would agree about the purpose of government being security and that the government may have to facilitate production of products needed to fight enemies be it wartime dictates on manufacturing of government supplies or this.

    Yes the market doesn't work but Libertarians can argue the government can make these decisions in the purpose of protecting citizens.
     
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  4. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    Comminism sucks. THAT is what led to this modern Chernobyl.


    Also neo libs and libertarians are not the same. You seriously are getting brainwashed somewhere to even suggest what you say. Where are you getting this from?
     
  5. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Not a good try. Democratic socialism is not communism. Try google or something. Japan had a nuclear disaster. Are they "communist" also>
    Three Mile Island. Were we "communist" back then.
     
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  6. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    no one died on three mile island.

    anyways, you as a fan of democratic socialism, and against corporatism are rooting for the destruction of libertarians.

    thomas massie is a guy that regularly, not just recently, gets actual votes recorded. As he talks about here, 2 years ago. Why would a democrat (little d not party affiliation) dislike that?

     
  7. dmoneybangbang

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    We tend to over correct.

    My perspective is this was a failure to have a plan and execute a plan by the government (multiple administrations). I'm sure Trump will try to and promote more isolationism from this. I don't really view this as an issue with capitalism or neo liberalism, but I'm sure it will be twisted that way.
     
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  8. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    Perhaps not surprisingly but I disagree. I don't consider myself a Libertarian and think the idea of true Libertarianism is dangerously flawed but the idea that now we will see the triumph of Democratic Socialism (which is different than actual Socialism) is not a good idea either. Pgabriel brings up a great point that the function of government is for safety and security and this is a crisis and it is absolutely necessary for the government to step in. The Phase 3 stimulus bill is an eye popping $2.2 Trillion but as many have pointed out this isn't really stimulus but an emergency bridge to try to hold the economy together to get through it and even then it won't be enough. While this bill does some good things by putting money into the hands of those who are unemployed or underemployed that money will not save the small businesses who employed many of those people. Many of those businesses will go under. Government is important in a crisis but it is the consumer that is and should be the basis of this economy. Once the crisis is over we need the consumer to spend especially at bars, restaurants and small retail. If it's just left to that we need more government intervention helping the worker that will have the perverse affect of benefiting large corporations and not small businesses.

    Also regarding corporations I understand the animus towards big companies like Delta and Boeing.. Living in Minneapolis Delta employs thousands f people here who support the Twin Cities tax base and spend money in local businesses. Boeing does the same for the Seattle area. Further Delta and Boeing stock isn't just held by fat cats but also many middle class people are invested through mutual funds along with things like pension funds. There are real implications for many of the people that Social Democrats want to help if corporations go under.

    My basic problem with the idea of Socialism and even to the Democratic Socialism that holds that while government wouldn't own the means of production would extremely regulate it and also have government play a much greater role in the economy is that the economy is like the weather. It is very complex and inherently chaotic. There are tons of problems with our economy and the global economy but there is no denying that markets including international trade and the movement of capital have created more wealth and lifted more people out of poverty than at any time in human history. While we Americans might look back fondly to a time in the 50's when someone working a factory job could pay for a house, a family and retirement the 50's wasn't so great for people living in Singapore, Taiwan, the PRC or even much of Europe. Even in the US while we have big problems that need to be addressed we have also had things like low inflation that has let our average consumer money go farther. Our life expectancy has increased since the 50's and our population has grown. Those wouldn't be possible unless our economy was also growing. I agree we need to address income inequality, we need to vastly improve health care, we need to improve education, and we need to help heal the environment. We need to be very careful though about how we do that otherwise we end up hurting what makes it possible to generate the wealth to worry about income inequality. I don't think the heavy hand of government is the answer.
     
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  9. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    America had a head start on the rest of the world in the fifties after WWII. The war put money in the economy after The Great Depression and after WWII even including allies America and ironically the Soviet Union were the last men standing as in no internal destruction. One is still the true super power and one is dearly departed.

    Communism works in China imo for cultural and functional reasons, functional being population management. However America is really the best beacon of liberty and personal freedom and it is the world super power because of an exceptional capitalist culture.

    America also has inherent advantages like natural resources and isolation. That being said we aren't in the western hemisphere by ourselves. Mexico really has enjoyed at lot of the advantages and was a true equal until mid 1800's.

    I understand Glych's positions on economics and politics but America takes care of its poor and is generous to the entire globe. We are living in the modern Roman empire because of capitalism/democracy
     
  10. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    Good post but I'll just point out that the PRC isn't really Communist and the attempt to implement true Communism was an abject failure there. The PRC is a Laissez Faire Capitalist but it's economy is far closer to Capitalism than to Socialism. As Deng Xiao Ping said "To get rich is glorious."
     
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  11. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    OOOOK now I know your game. You're a communist shill. Got it. You're really sick if you are going to run defense for the Chernobyl accident. Are you a self-taught radical or are you working for someone? You know I really can't wait to watch Bernie lose the Democratic primary and see how the Bernie Babies react. Are you going to be out on the street for a revolution with over weight couch potatoes in pink p***y hats and antifa masks and androgynous short-haired Herms with pink hair?
     

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