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Well, MLB wanted the Yankee $$$$$...We were in the way.

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by Plowman, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. Major

    Major Member

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    This simply puts you into the "players are ****ing idiots" category. If the argument is that it's not helpful, then that boils down to the idea that knowing a fastball is coming does not help a player hit a fastball. This would mean all of baseball is delusional. The idea of pitchers trying to deceive hitters, of using more complex signs when people are on 2nd base, of baserunners trying to steal signs when on 2nd, all these teams using video or Apple Watches or whatever is all pointless because knowing the pitch that's coming is worthless. If that's true, everyone in baseball is simply a ****ing idiot for trying to cheat when its not helpful.

    The same silly arguments were made about steroids - that steroids didn't help with hand/eye coordination or help you make contact with the baseball, so clearly they didn't help. And then we got lots of data that showed otherwise.

    I choose to believe baseball players are not idiots. And they are not going to put an endless amount of effort into an organized plan to steal signs if they don't think gives them an advantage. And they aren't stupid enough to think something gives them an advantage when it doesn't.

    The stats are irrelevant - teams hit vastly differently at home and on the road every year, cheating or not. For all we know, the split would have been worse without the cheating. Or they only used the cheating in critical moments so it may not show up in a season-long numbers. Or maybe only a few players took advantage of it. But the Astros won a pair of 7 game series. Two of their home games against NYY were 2-1. One of their home games against LA was a crazy 13-12 extra inning affair where they repeatedly had huge hits and comebacks. If even one of those runs was aided by the banging, then the Astros benefited from cheating and possibly won a World Series because of it. as @justtxyank said, arguing it doesn't matter / everyone does it / cheating is part of the game all make sense. But the idea that it didn't help them defies plausibility.
     
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  2. Major

    Major Member

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    It's also worth noting how many players are coming out and criticizing this - not just from salty Yankees/Dodgers players, but from other random teams as well (notice no one from the Red Sox!). Players tend not to rat each other out, and they tend to say silent on controversial issues where they might get sucked in. No one wants to be the next Ryan Braun and get caught lying. So the fact that so many players from such a diverse mix of teams are railing on the Astros for this suggests that this level of cheating may not be as widespread as people want to think. The Astros may actually have gone a level further than everyone else.
     
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  3. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    i don’t discount that people lie...

    but terry Francona and Mike Scoscia have come out and expressed anger about this “everyone does it” narrative.

    Patriots fans also used the “everyone does it” argument for spygate and the “Aaron Rodgers does it!” About deflategate
     
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  4. cmoak1982

    cmoak1982 Member
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    There’s also been a ton of players that have come out and said it is prevalent.
     
  5. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    The ones I've read have said sign stealing is prevalent, not what the Astros were doing specifically.
     
    #85 justtxyank, Jan 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  6. cmoak1982

    cmoak1982 Member
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    Using technology to steal signs. However it’s done it’s still using technology that you aren’t supposed to use. Apple watches were used for real time, same with bullpen cameras.
    Not excusing what the Astros did but if using tech is the line then it’s prevalent. If it’s banging on trash cans, then I guess it’s the Astros.
    Although Olney said in an interview, there’s banging on pipes, using bats against walls and similar type things to trash cans all over the league.
    I still have logistic questions about signals to trash cans and the time involved. And I also know that baseball is a sport where cheating is ingrained.
    And it still wasn’t technically illegal in 2017
     
  7. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    No one said that the information is worthless, just that it is possible that it wasn't the huge benefit some are making it out to be.

    You said that random fans said it is a distraction, it's not random fans, it's Hinch, there's also hitters in the past that said getting this information is distracting to them more than a benefit.

    You should hear some of the things Basketball players do because they think it helps them perform better. Reggie Miller had a long list of silly things he'd do because he thought it helped him play better.

    I'm saying what the players thought and what is the truth are different things entirely. For example, Shaq literally believes coaching does not matter. At all. He's made a passionate defense of this statement...is he right? Just because a player believes it helps them doesn't mean it actually helps them.

    I don't think the stats are ever irrelevant especially in this case where they used it at home and then used it on the road. The fact is though no one knows WHEN they used it, which at bats, or anything.

    I'm only going by what actual baseball people have said about sign stealing in the past and how it affects batters. It is not for everyone. This was even in Manfred's report...

    Quote...
    "Some Astros players told my investigators that they did not believe the sign-stealing scheme was effective, and it was more distracting than useful to hitters."

    Not only that, but this was ALSO in the report...this part is important for this argument...
    However, the Astros’ replay review room staff continued, at least for part of the 2018 season, to decode signs using the live center field camera feed, and to transmit the signs to the dugout through in-person communication. At some point during the 2018 season, the Astros stopped using the replay review room to decode signs because the players no longer believed it was effective. The investigation did not reveal any attempt by the Astros to utilize electronic equipment to decode and transmit signs in the 2018 Postseason.

    So, they stopped the banging and would just transmit the signs to the dugout but the players stopped because they didn't believe it was effective in the end. According to the report then, they stopped it in 2019...so we can rule out them stopping it because of any guilt, they were told to stop in 2017 and continued all the way into 2018 so they didn't care about the rules. If they thought the sign stealing won them a WS then they would have done it in 2018 and 2019, right? Why stop? They weren't getting caught and would not get caught if it weren't for Fiers.

    So I'm not sure how confident players were of it. This is pretty consistent what I've known about it in regards to regular old sign stealing. Some batters hone in on the pitcher and don't want to have to try to read some other sign while also worrying about the pitcher.

    More
    https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/...-experience/ougfSgHJZlc9PJ0mqcCPCI/story.html

    For some players there is a such thing as information overload. You see it a lot inf football, some LBs can play zone, man, whatever, while some just are good reaction players. They are good at blitzing, doing one thing. For batters it is the same way, some guys just react and the more information you give them the more you may mess up their timing or their routine. Same for QBs that are one read, two read guys, you give them more and you freeze and confuse them...

    This is not me saying that it wasn't a benefit, having the option was a benefit...but I think the Stros stopped it because the rewards didn't outweigh the massive risks.
     
  8. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    I mean the Astros were saying they were innocent when this all started too.

    It would not surprise me to find out other teams...teams that are acting clean and on their high horse...are also doing it too. This happened during steroids too. While no one wants to be the next Ryan Braun the thing is people that cheat and lie never think they will get caught cheating or lying. That's why they do it in the first place...either that or the punishment isn't enough to scare them away from doing it.

    I don't care what anyone says right now but for me it is fishy that all these teams knew about it and said nothing about it. For example, the Red Sox had to know about the Astros and both teams were aware and on alert for any shenanigans about it.

    The Nationals were paranoid about it during the WS so why wasn't it brought up then? You'd think if I'm going into a fight with a known cheater I'd alert the authorities that it isn't a fair fight. Everyone has been quiet about it and for that reason I wouldn't be surprised to find more than two teams guilty of misusing technology in some form to get an advantage.
     
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  9. King1

    King1 Contributing Member

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    Tony Larussa takes a hit.

    Personally, I don't care about any of this. I think it's stupid. All teams do it to a certain extent.
     
  10. Buck Turgidson

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    Teams were doing the same **** with cameras back in the 80's. Everyone has always known about it.

    The Astros brought this on themselves by making enemies with the media and MLB office.
     
  11. Major

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    But maybe it was ineffective at that point because enough opposing players knew about it or suspected it at that point and had found ways to counter it. Maybe it the method that was in ineffective - not the benefits. And the two creative geniuses behind it were gone at that point.
     
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  12. mikol13

    mikol13 Protector of the Realm
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  13. Major

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    There has been a lot of dumb tweets about this whole story, but this is near the top of them. It makes me wonder if these people even understand anything about baseball or statistics.
     
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  14. mikol13

    mikol13 Protector of the Realm
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    I feel the same overall. If it’s ok to steal signs, who gives a rats ass how they do it? Just be better at hiding/disguising them.

    What’s lost in all of this is everyone acting like the Astros knew every pitch that was coming. Teams knew it was happening and they were doing their best to change things up to make it tougher on the Astros, and vice versa. Also getting lost is the fact that the Astros are a damn good team. To say they wouldn’t have won without this is total bs. Our pitching was pretty damn dominant for the most part when it counted most.

    Look, I get it, we got caught. It sucks, and I’m not happy they were doing it when told not to. I’m not excusing the team. I just hate that it’s so widespread and so far, MLB is trying to show that it was isolated to a few people and two teams. I’M NOT GOING OUT LIKE THAT.
     
  15. mikol13

    mikol13 Protector of the Realm
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    This was not a serious tweet. It’s to try an prove a point. I have a ton of respect for you and a couple others here that want to just take it on the chin and move on. I don’t. I don’t want my team to have this black eye when it’s mostly a league wide thing. Doesn’t mean for one second that I’m excusing the team. It sucks, I wish the wins were clean.

    MLB’s hand was forced to do this. Sorry, but it’s not good enough. MLB wants to protect its brand as much as possible and I don’t like it.

    Usually I’m as laid back as it gets, but the more time that goes by, the more I don’t like this. I’m always talking to my boys about things like It doesn’t matter what other kids say or do, do the right things, be the bigger person, show love and things will work out like they’re supposed to. That said, my oldest was getting bullied for a year and I finally had enough and showed him some things. The bully tried again one day and my son tried to get away, but he wouldn’t let him. So my son whipped his ass and has never had a problem one since. Point is, this is how I feel now, this needs blown up and everyone needs to be accountable.

    Little TMI, but I’m sick of this. I’m the type of person that will always look to the good side of things. Even people that hurt me I try to help, but when you back me into a corner, I’m going to fight for what I believe in.
     
    #95 mikol13, Jan 18, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  16. Major

    Major Member

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    I don't disagree with this - but I think the methodology that people use (not you - I'm talking about these tweeters) is absurd. This doesn't help - at all - show that other teams were cheating. It just makes these people look like whiny idiots.

    If Astros fans want to get rid of the black eye based on the notion that everyone else does it, the strategy is to go prove it. Fiers was a starting point, but the way this really caught fire is all the endless video evidence from internet fans and "reporters" where you could hear the banging and all that. And that video came out within days of the scandal breaking, so it wasn't even that hard to find apparently. If it's really true everyone else cheated, these twitter people should go find evidence of it. Every game is on video. There are cameras from all different angles. Endless fan shots, etc. Unless the Astros were just uniquely terrible at the cheating, there should be some kind of evidence somewhere on other teams if its as widespread as we want to believe.
     
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  17. mikol13

    mikol13 Protector of the Realm
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    I agree. I really like a lot of Astros Twitter, but there are also quite a few of those that do more damage than anything. It’s easy to pile on the Astros when you have some spewing nonsense. I see them talk about Yankees Twitter and others, but they’re doing the same things.

    I’m just wondering what Crane gave Manfred and if Manfred actually does anything about it. It doesn’t look good right now. Still, a couple of players have come out and named teams and that should be good enough to investigate others imo. I feel like the league knows, but just doesn’t make want an even bigger black eye. That’s the frustrating part, not that we got caught.
     
  18. Buck Turgidson

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    [Narrator Voice]

    They do not.
     
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  19. Castor27

    Castor27 Moderator
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  20. Handles

    Handles Member

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    Verlander was calling out sign stealing and asking MLB to crack down in June 2017. Just because players call something out doesn’t mean they’re not doing it. They could be hypocrites or they might not be privy to the cheating.

    edit: sorry meant to quote this post...

     

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