I used the stat to show that a minimum player with a tiny role on our team has done about the same to add to winning than a max player with a huge role. Not that either one could or should play each other’s role. Westbrook got a max contract because there was a time in his career when all these numbers I’m referencing said he was a damn good player. Those same numbers don’t say that anymore. Compare Westbrook to all the other max players. LAST in raptor ranking and I believe LAST in winshares per 48. Look at every player in the NBA who shoots a high volume of shots. Westbrook is LAST in efficiency. Look at all the players in the NBA who have the ball in their hands roughly the same amount of time as Westbrook. Westbrook has the MOST turnovers. It’s not just something I came up with. I have yet to hear a discussion on the endless number of NBA podcasts I listen to where the discussion on Westbrook is that he’s overall been really great or even decent. Not ONE. I can openly admit he has positives. And that he had an 11 game stretch that were very good. But you have to be insane to think that the positives have even close to making up for all the negative this year. I don’t see why it’s so hard for you to admit that for the entirety of the season he has been bad.
This is so dumb. **** the stats that we have used forever to compare and judge players on how they are performing? The trade happened. That’s fine. But posters here are literally going LOF and denying all statistical facts about his play for this team. There is ZERO way to spin his play into an overall positive. That is the only point I’m making. I don’t care about the trade. I don’t worry about other trades. I worry about what he has done as a Houston Rocket. It has been bad. What Harden wanted has ZERO to do with how Westbrook has performed for this team.
we don’t know what another season of having to deal with Chris Paul would’ve done to Harden Harden wanted Russ, that is the most important thing...u want your superstar to be happy Where was Chris Paul and all his great play last year? Dude had 1 of the worst seasons of his career to go along with his usual 20 or so missed games. In the playoffs, he only lived up to expectations in 1 game. 1 thing I like with the Russ addition is that he has helped us to go from being 27th to 14th in rebound rate, and I do like that we look to push the pace more to contrast Harden’s halfcourt style. We’ve gone from 19th to 8th in fastbreak ppg. He can also get to the line at a decent rate. people act as if having Chris Paul would mean we’d be a lock for the title Russ’s inefficiency does scare me...a lot of people on here a little too quick to blow it off, it’s a huge deal...also, we routinely don’t play well when Harden isn’t on the court, that’s also a big issue
that's not his game so move along appreciate what he does bring to the team u act like u didnt know he was a poor 3 point shooter until now
clutchfans have too many cry babies as members 90 percent don't even understand the game of basketball they just be making post and comments that be the dumbest crap I have ever heard
You said that he was a detriment to the team and linked me RAPTOR stats to prove it. Look at Morant's RAPTOR and Beal's, clearly, something isn't right here, wouldn't you agree? I don't care about what guys on podcasts are saying man, podcasts guys say silly things about Harden all the time. That's no metric of anything, but you said these stats proved he's a detriment to his team so you then must agree that Morant and Beal are also detriments to their team? Your statement is wrong again too. this one... "I used the stat to show that a minimum player with a tiny role on our team has done about the same to add to winning than a max player with a huge role." Because again, it is harder for Westbrook with his usage and role to have better +/- stats. Mclemore having a +1 and Westbrook a -2 overall is not the same thing because Westbrook is asked to do more than stand in a corner and shoot 3s. So you did compare his RAPTOR to those of role players on our team to make the argument that he's hurting our team. To compare him to other max players, fine, maybe he's the worst max player in the NBA right now. I'd disagree only because I think Wall is worse even when he's healthy and I'd take Westbrook over empty stats Kyrie any day, but that's another discussion...Westbrook is the only star player we could get and he's still better than maybe 90% of dudes in the NBA. Nah, I know his faults. I just don't flip out when he has a bad game because I expect it. As I said before, Westbrook is pure chaos that scares both coaches on the floor. I do think Harden has the ability to chill him out though and I think we even saw that last night after his crazy like 3 posessions Harden calmed things down and we got back on track and dismantled a team that's supposed to be a contender.
Westbrook is a damn good player. Look at the Rockets rebounding numbers. The reason the Rockets defense was damn good in the playoffs in 2017/2018 was because they could defend via switching and were a top 2 defensive rebounding team. Now look at the Thunders rebounding numbers from prior years to this year. There is a simple correlation there. Look at Harden’s numbers. Westbrook is another play maker who is helping Harden stay under control and rested leading to Harden’s increased shooting percentages. This is Harden’s best shooting numbers since the last time he played with the Thunder. Anyone that says Westbrook isn’t a top player in this league is someone whose opinion shouldn’t be remotely considered. Rockets just beat two damn good teams by double digits. They are already superior to last years team. Some people just don’t understand basketball and that’s fine.
This is the mentality that drives me up a wall...we lost to the Warriors WITHOUT Durant...after bragging all year that if we had CP3 we'd be champions. That was embarrassing. Also the fact that he gets hurt constantly at the end of the year, it's always been a thing for him to pick up some nagging injury in the playoffs or going into the playoffs, he does it almost every season he's been in the NBA and he's getting older.
There is no downplaying this. They had the Warriors without Durant for an entire 4th quarter, failed to capitalize on that. Then facing elimination, at home, no Durant...still lose. This is again after bragging all year long that if we just had CP3 those Warriors would be donezo.
Welp. I guess that’s that. Your understanding of these stats just isn’t there. Raptor is there to show you the total value a player brings to the team. It takes all the things they do to produce a number that quantifies this. It is not perfect. But it’s also not just garbage because it doesn’t agree with how you view Westbrook. I mean look at who it rates as the best players this year and tell me this stat is SERIOUSLY flawed. If you can’t understand that a max player giving us the same value as a minimum level role player is the definition of a detriment to the team than I don’t know what to tell you. And it would be one thing if you could say to me this Raptor stat is seriously flawed on Westbrook and then gave me a list of the endless available stats out there that showed Westbrook is actually really good and that Raptor just doesn’t read him correctly. But as I know you know. There isn’t any relative number or piece of statistical fact you can point to that says otherwise. ALL the stats show he has declined severely from his MVP year. ALL of them.
1.5, we had the lead in game 5 after Durant got injured and somehow lost in the game in the 4th when Harden deferred the offense to Chris Paul.
I’m surprised he’s lasted until January without picking up some sort of injury Chris Paul has been playing pretty good high efficient, low usage basketball. He’s had several games where he didn’t even score 10 points, but it doesn’t matter because he’s in OKC and they have little to no expectations this season. our starting lineup of Russ-Harden-House-Tucker-Capela is 1 of the best lineups in the NBA on both ends of the court...this should excite Rockets fans since this lineup will be playing a lot come playoff time...Russ only lineups have been bad, but we’ll see if they improve now that he can have a healthy EG next to him Russ can be absolutely horrible at times, but he can also drop 40 on the road against the Clippers. Can CP reach the lows that Russ can? No, because he doesn’t play with that usage and is a much smarter player. Bad Russ can go 8-24 for 20 points, 7 rebounds, and 7 asissts. Bad Chris Paul will go for 10, 4 boards, and 5 assists in 30+ minutes. Chris Paul definitely can’t reach his highs. Russ is shooting 45% from the field at home giving us 24, 9, and 7...his TS is still below average, but u take it with everything else he does...we need him to play better on the road I also made a post earlier in some thread showing that Westbrook’s level of play has increased notably after the ASB the past 3 seasons
You come off as someone that’s incapable of seeing the big picture. Just because you’ve used extremely simplistic measures of player performance in the past doesn’t mean that everyone else has done so as well. +/- for instance, has always been a joke. It didn’t magically become stupid when Westbrook joined the Rockets. It’s always been a bad metric. There are plenty of ways to spin this as a positive for the Rockets. Most of them aren’t accurate, but if you can’t understand even one possible explanation about why the Rockets may be better with Westbrook overall, then you’re living under a rock, or your statistics knowledge is about as far along as a freshman in college. I mean, you haven’t measured the most basic premise of Westbrook: Does a faster pace yield more efficiency per 100 possessions on only fastbreaks? Do we get more efficient half court possessions per game because of Westbrook? You aren’t even asking the right questions. That’s why you aren’t going to convince anybody.
You don't understand the stat because it is still in the end a +/- stat with all the flaws that stat has. I didn't say it is garbage but it can be wrong. I've proved that unless you really seriously think Trez brings more value to his team than PG13, that Siakam is the 3rd worst player on his team, and that Morant is actually a garbage player. The stat is WRONG about Westbrook being the worst player on the Rockets. It just is. It can be right about some players and wrong about others, that's why these stats are not end all be all things. Again, you literally can't take any +/- stat and apply it across roles, you keep doing this. It is harder for Westbrook to maintain a higher +/- than roleplayers just like it is for Morant. Westbrook is not giving us the same value as McLemore because if you give Mclemore a bigger role the team would do worse. The only stat that matters are team stats, that's it. That is the only stat that matters and the Rockets team stats are good WITH Russ playing a ton of minutes, so clearly he's doing something right. Also, who is arguing that he hasn't declined? I clearly have said he has, I clearly said if he were playing at his MVP level we'd obviously be doing much better...but he's still playing at an all-star level, even 538 projections say that. Maybe RAPTOR says he's not carrying the team as well as he should be carrying the team when Harden is not on the floor. Fine. I think chemistry has a lot to do with that...but good luck finding many players in the NBA capable of doing that. There is a reason why after all that people wanted him to play on that b2b against the Pelicans with Harden out because no one needed RAPTOR to know that for one night Westbrook could carry the team to a W. That's literally all we need from him, when Harden is having a bad night, all we need is for Westbrook to play the role of star and he's done that so far. It's actually pretty uncanny that when Harden slumps he tends to play better.
Honestly, having someone that can reliably dribble the ball is a win with Westbrook. All I wanted out of this trade was someone that could carry the ball while harden got rest. I think it’s too early to close the book on WB, but if he buys into his role and controls his antics, I like the guy on our squad. CP3 was deteriorating quicker than we would have wanted, we needed to get rid of him and I’m not sure what other options were available for us to stay competitive and make the most out harden’s prime.
I am worried that Westbrook is horrific running the second unit. That's something I kinda missed about Chris Paul Westbrook can afford to do the bull in the china shop routine when Harden is on the floor because he gets a lot of space because teams spend so much time denying Harden off the ball. But when Westbrook plays with the role players, it's a fricken disaster because everyone just stares at WB and waits for him to make a play like Harden does iso'ing. MDA needs to figure out a way for people to move around more with Harden off the floor, set more picks for Westbrook, or off screen.
This is the best post IMO on the CP3 v Russ debate or at least close to what I believe. CP3 is consistently more efficient but his ceiling isn't as high. His low games are still decent games while Russ's low games can be pretty bad... But Russ also has games where he looks amazing and unstoppable. I do think Russ only lineups is a fit and chemistry thing, I think he'll get better with Harden off the floor as time goes on and hopefully the team learns to adjust to his style more. I know Hartenstein had a quote about trying to learn the spots Westbrook expects him to be so I'm sure its the same for other players.
