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Ukraine scandal Megathread

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Sep 18, 2019.

  1. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    B-Bob likes this.
  2. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

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    The hypocrisy is absolutely comical around here. Biden’s son got a plush job he was unqualified for due to daddy’s VP role, Bill Clinton lied under oath (and has women accusing him of rape), yet y’all are convinced about Trump before all the facts are even out or a trial is completed.

    Reminds me of how convinced y’all were about Russia, which turned out to be an absolute nothing burger. But it was good for Maddow’s ratings!
     
  3. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    Biden’s son and the Trump kids should not be profiting off their Dad’s position if they are unqualified. Absolutely in agreement. There is a ton of unseen nepotism that is harmful and should be more transparent.

    Bill Clinton was impeached. His personal behavior in the White House was reprehensible. Rape accusations like other criminal accusations should be taken seriously. Trump has been accused by past spouses and random women of sexual assault and even was on tape bragging about his sexual exploits. It is as if powerful men think the rules apply to them. And maybe historically the rules didn’t, but that does not mean the rich and powerful should get a pass now. And just as the woman against Bill Clinton should be taken seriously, so should the women against Trump. No one accused HW, W or Obama of being womanizers.

    Donald Trump has personally profited as he has military service members stay at his properties. Foreign officials will rent out rooms in his properties to curry favor. These are violations of the emoluments clause.

    Donald Trump has asked for assistance against political rivals and used congressionally approved aid as a carrot and stick to get Ukraine to comply. Then he goes on national television and asks China to investigate too. These are federal election crimes. And these are two instances out in the open. Imagine how much more is going on behind the scenes.

    Donald Trump threw our Kurdish allies in the fight against ISIS to Turkey and gave up the US strategic position to Russia. While this is not a crime, it is short sighted and shows a continued lack of foresight.

    Donald Trump spends more time insulting international allies, cozying up with international adversaries, watching TV, playing Golf, and Tweeting incessantly than he does being president.

    Mick Mulvaney let the cat out of the bag when he described Trump as thinking he is still in the hospitality business.

    Donald Trump is a showman, not a statesmen. There is a reason why everyone who has left this administration ends up trashing him and his leadership style.
     
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  4. mtbrays

    mtbrays Contributing Member
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    They're nihilists, Donny.
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
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    A mind reading defense and bringing outsourcing to a new level.

    No one can read their mind, but the statement said they were told to publicly announce investigation into the Biden while aid was held back. You can be a fool and not connect the dot.

    I knew we like to outsource, but this got to be a first. If Ukraine didn’t realize a crime was taken place, it’s nothing.
     
  6. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    @bigtexxx
     
  7. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    So if there was Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election, and possible whitehouse corruption, isn't it prudent for the President to ask it to be looked into? Is is not neglectful to stay quiet? Why are so many complicit with corruption so long as they can attack the orange man?
     
  8. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    Who should the president ask?
     
  9. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    FBI.
     
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  10. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    Ukraine since it happened there. That is not the FBI's jurisdiction.
     
  11. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    Do you think it's possible, now or 20yrs from now, for a foreign state (say China) to flip this strategy and announce they did an investigation into one of our elections and found corruption that helped one side or another in our election ... but it was actually a complete lie and Fake News.

    Further, do you think it's possible for that foreign state to merely threaten to release such Fake News to coerce an elected official (or leading candidate) to cowtow to them?

    Of course it is, but previously, this would be laughable to our voters, and viewed as transparent attempts by foreigners to influence our elections. So the more we make it acceptable for an elected official to publicly (or via unofficial channels) to ask foreign states to do investigations into our elections, the more vulnerable they become and more susceptible our voters become to foreign Fake News. There could come a day foreign states no longer even have to do any covert, high-tech interference, other than make a Fake News announcement ... or just backdoor threaten it.

    So, no, it's not prudent for a president to directly ask a foreign state to investigate a political rival. It makes us vulnerable to ask for political favors, as opposed to favors in national interest.
     
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  12. Rileydog

    Rileydog Contributing Member

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    This evades the question of whether the laws as they have existed for decades prohibit a sitting president for soliciting help of a foreign government to investigate a political rival. You focus on 2016 but really this is about trump wanting dirt on Biden. That’s trumps biggest problem.

    That is the only operative question. Maybe people say yes, maybe people say no. There is no quid pro quo requirement. Nor is there a “man that law is dumb” defense.


    As to the entirely separate question of whether irules SHOULD allow trump to leverage his office for political gain: there is a balance of competing concerns it is for lawmakers to decide whether the rules should be changed.

    There is come “common sense” appeal to the idea that a president should be able to push a foreign government to investigate a political rival. If corruption exists, why not, goes the simple argument.

    The competing concern is what appears to have happened here. A sitting president is far less concerned about what’s good for the country and Ukraine policy, and far more concerned about attacking a political rival.

    Different people will have different views of the facts, largely driven by political views. But assume the following factual scenario:

    - trump did delay aid approved by congress and pushed Ukraine to investigate Biden.

    If those are the facts, I cannot see how any half way intelligent person would say that should be legal. The need for checks and balances far outweighs other concerns.
     
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  13. Nook

    Nook Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Rileydog

    Rileydog Contributing Member

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    Then run a simpler factual scenario - should any sitting president be allowed to call upon a foreign government to investigate a political rival?

    Again, any half intelligent person would know this should be and is illegal. Our laws cannot allow any sitting president to do that, and trump is the best example of why. The president wields incredible power internationally and we cannot allow the president to leverage that power for personal gain. Nor do we want to encourage foreign governments to come up with “investigations” on their own as a means To curry favor with existing presidents.

    the entire idea is that foreign governments must be held at arms length and the relationships should be based on foreign policy managed by people charged with the country’s best interests.
     
  15. Nook

    Nook Member

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    It isn't directed towards me..... but I wouldn't care...... mostly because your version or view of what the teachings of Christ are, is the complete opposite of what I view his teachings to be.
     
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  16. Andre0087

    Andre0087 Member

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    No, the FBI should conduct the investigation and can do the fact gathering from foreign sources themselves as necessary. That's how you insulate yourself from Trump's current situation.
     
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  17. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    I was wondering why that one topic came up in this thread, and now I get it. You can only really rationalize Christian support for 45 if you embrace the idea that perceived progress (e.g. SCOTUS appointees) for the supposed rights of the unborn (not a big topic in the Bible) >> any behavior or any rights or any suffering for those actually born (enormous, arguably central topic in the New Testament). Fascinating times. As if all that evangelical Christianity has left is abortion, and liberals who want to feed the poor, welcome immigrants, and so on, are pure evil based on the abortion issue, eclipsing all other issues that Christ spoke about explicitly, in one dramatic wave of the hand. Most of the New Testament: irrelevant.
     
  18. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Yes what seems to be lost is how Jesus felt about the wealthy.

    That has been completely forgotten...... but Jesus hates the gays suddenly........ for a man that really wasn't very judgmental, he has suddenly over 2,000 years morphed into a judgmental prosperity preacher that also apparently believes in things not even in the bible like rapture.
     
  19. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    King David is going to give you a golden fish.
     
  20. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    I posted weeks ago, I think it was this thread, that the FBI frequently conducts investigations overseas and even has agents stationed overseas. I posted a link to the FBI foreign investigation page.
     
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