1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[Syria] US Troop Withdraw

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Cohete Rojo, Dec 19, 2018.

  1. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    48,669
    Likes Received:
    17,295
    You know what's not BS? Kurds agreeing to do the fighting against ISIS taking the losses so our troops don't have to suffer them as much. Kurds protecting our intel resources so they don't exposed and can help to keep us safe. Kurds holding and guarding ISIS prisoners so they aren't free to continue their attack on America and its allies. Kurds doing the combat which enables our men and women serving in the armed forces to come home, see their families etc. The Kurds have done all of that with the promise that they would be sheltered from Turks and Iraqi groups that want to exterminate them.

    The Kurds lived up to their end of the bargain.
     
  2. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2008
    Messages:
    16,308
    Likes Received:
    3,580
    you should check maps more often
    Kurds are land grabbing. Nothing more. They saw an opportunity. to carve out a foothold to build on. This is not OK for Turkey and we need to understand as much.

    Also we did our end. We didn't have to help them at all. They were pawns. Sad. Tragic. But that's the truth. We owe them nothing. They are a terror group bent on conquest.
     
  3. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    48,669
    Likes Received:
    17,295
    Just pawns? We owe them what we agreed to. Is this how you fulfill your deals?
     
  4. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    53,825
    Likes Received:
    53,619
  5. ghettocheeze

    ghettocheeze Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    7,325
    Likes Received:
    9,134
    All political and moral objections aside, this has to be one of biggest foreign policy and military blunders in recent memory.

    Right up there with Bush dismantling the Iraqi Army post invasion, which directly led to the creation of ISIS and the destabilization of the whole region. In 5 years, whether a Republican or Democrat president, the US will be back on the ground bleeding more troops and spending more treasury to fight the next iteration of ISIS. Only this time without reliable allies to fight as proxies.

    Now, I know there are many here who hold sentiments of "bring home the troops" and "end the endless war" and they are morally rightful in their views as good natured Americans. However, the United States has been in the business of running an empire and exerting influence and dominance in the world since the days of the Monroe Doctrine. That's just how the world works.

    And also why this blunder will be so costly. It deteriorates American influence from the region and affords Russia and maybe even China the opportunity to step in and increase their spheres. That's why the entire US military chain of command, DOD, and State Department were furious about this ill-advised disaster.

    Whether be it malice or incompetence, the current administration has undone decades of American foreign policy through sheer reckless abandonment.
     
  6. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    53,825
    Likes Received:
    53,619
    In the absence of American leadership...

     
  7. Jugdish

    Jugdish Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2006
    Messages:
    8,279
    Likes Received:
    8,140
    "Some of my best friends are Kurds"
     
  8. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    53,825
    Likes Received:
    53,619
  9. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    53,825
    Likes Received:
    53,619
    Meanwhile... how much more of this will republicans allow?

     
  10. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    42,653
    Likes Received:
    39,216
    Is the President saying that Turkey threatened to declare war against the United States if we didn't leave Syria?
     
  11. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    23,888
    Likes Received:
    19,692
    The Right spent all of Obama's presidency nonstop complaining about how terrible ISIS is, and how Obama was weak with ISIS who was shown as an existential threat to the world.

    Now.... in 2019 when their cult leader is in power who passively freed nearly 1000 key ISIS fighters, they are DEAD SILENT.

    Dagger, Mick, Dach, etc..... why are you so silent about Trump essentially freeing ISIS fighters? What the he is wrong with you F-ing people?? You are in a cult, and your cult like behavior enables policy that is dangerous to our national security.

    Wake the F up. Your Twitter Troll presidency is a massive failure, and we are much less safe because YOU GUYS enable him because you hate people like me so much that the trolling is entertaining enough to look the other way against lawlessness, and corrupt foreign policy meant to weaken the US.

    Wake up!!
     
    AleksandarN and RayRay10 like this.
  12. Sacudido

    Sacudido Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    142
    A lot of morally outraged folks. Let's separate the morality for a second, and look at this straight up Machiavellian. Say we stay. What's the endgame? A kurdish state? We'll force Turkey and/or Syria to relinquish their territory to set up a Kurdish state? How shall we do that? Turkey is a NATO member, so i suppose we could drop our NATO membership and declare war on Turkey to make them give the Kurds a state. Then we will be there for the next several decades. Next to zero benefit for the USA. The status quo also happens to be of zero benefit to the USA beyond some warm fuzzy feelings. I'm open to having my mind changed on this if someone can point out a solution that doesn't have our troops remaining there indefinitely.

    I say we blow up the prisons that have ISIS in them, then withdraw. Kill the entire lot of ISIS prisoners. This way they can't be used as an excuse for us staying there.
     
  13. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    48,669
    Likes Received:
    17,295
    USSR gave up tons of territory for a plethora of new nations when it became only Russia. We wouldn't have to go to war with Turkey if we negotiated a deal with them, working with allies to help protect their autonomy and prevent them from attacking the Kurds. Establishing a Kurdish state would be difficult and not necessary right now.

    Taking the morality of it if you wish is fine. Strategically why ruin all of the progress we've made in our battle against ISIS? It's too late now because of Trump's decision, it is done. Furthermore, in a region with known terrorist enemies of the United States, why show ourselves to be untrustworthy allies. Who will be likely to give us intel? Who will want to work with us in fighting these terrorist organizations if they see we aren't trustworthy and will abandon them if the President has a property in the land of their enemies?

    So strategically it was a horrible move. Then you can add in the morality, and it just gets worse.
     
  14. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2007
    Messages:
    45,153
    Likes Received:
    21,570
    Slaughtering prisoners en masse. Good amd moral
     
  15. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Messages:
    30,841
    Likes Received:
    14,340
  16. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2001
    Messages:
    17,300
    Likes Received:
    11,764
    Must all be fake then, right?
     
  17. Sacudido

    Sacudido Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    142
    I'll go along with the strategic intelligence aspect as a decent point; I am dubious as to the benefits of that information versus the multiple other drawbacks of our continued involvement. If we do manage to strike a deal with Turkey, I envision everything falling apart once the more extreme kurdish independence groups start to push for more (we've even labelled one of those groups as a terrorist organization if memory serves), and it breaks down into warfare again.

    I did say to take the morality out of it. However, ISIS is a scourge on civilization. I would shed no tears for their literal elimination.
     
  18. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    53,825
    Likes Received:
    53,619
  19. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2008
    Messages:
    16,308
    Likes Received:
    3,580
    [​IMG]
    Amid Turkish push, displaced Arab Syrians eye return to homeland
    Ankara's cross-border assault on Kurdish fighters raises hopes of return home for Arab Syrians displaced in Turkey.


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.al...ans-eye-return-homelands-191014130349072.html

    Really, this is some of the little well-done on the ground reporting lately. This is the reality for many stranded in Turkey. People like this lost their homes, villages, and family to the YPG land grabbers. Those who lie about their methods of ethnic cleansing.
     
  20. ghettocheeze

    ghettocheeze Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    7,325
    Likes Received:
    9,134
    I don't think you fully understand what you are asking for with the Machiavellian approach, which is all about exerting influence and power over other states. The US relies on this part of the playbook to continue its hegemony around the world.

    A true Machiavellian leader would have weighed the cost of losing influence in a region versus keeping an aggressor like Turkey in check. He would never concede hard-fought territory and give Russia the opportunity to increase its sphere of influence. This would be seen as a sign of weakness around the world giving bigger aggressors the confidence to make even bolder moves like China making plans for Taiwan to simply test the strength of US alliances.

    At the cost of keeping few thousand soldiers in front of the Kurds, the US has lost a major foreign policy initiative. Sure, you and other good intentioned citizens may not like having permanently stationed troops there, but that is the cost of maintaining an empire. It's no different than why the US has permanent troops in other parts of the world including East Asia. That's how the game works.

    As for your other concerns about NATO and Turkey, that's an even better Machiavellian reason to keep Turkey on a short leash. NATO was created primarily to keep the Soviet Union now Russia in check. If the aggression of a NATO member Turkey leads to Russia increasing its sphere of influence as it is doing now with a deal with the Kurds, then by all means NATO should step in put Turkey in its place for damaging the alliance and putting other members at risk for emboldening Russia.

    Finally, your last statement about bombing prisoners is even more incomprehensible. Machiavellian philosophy is a lot things; cold, ruthless, power hungry, but nowhere does it endorse committing war crimes and mass murder.
     
    RayRay10 and dmoneybangbang like this.

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now