1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[Atlantic] The Case for Impeachment...Now.

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by SamFisher, Jan 17, 2019.

  1. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,714
    Likes Received:
    18,912
    You really do need help.
     
    JayGoogle likes this.
  2. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    53,658
    Likes Received:
    41,537
    I would consider duty to History is the same as to the people. It is very possible that Trump can win reelection no matter what Pelosi does and I also don't think that impeachment without removal from office is the guarantee of Trump's reelection that many think it will be. The battlelines are already drawn and the more scandals that come out of this administration the less there are people undecided or wavering in their opinion of this Administration. I think there is even a risk of not impeaching of making Pelosi and Democrats looking disunited and weak.
     
    RayRay10 and B-Bob like this.
  3. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,714
    Likes Received:
    18,912
    That may be your evaluation and that may even be my evaluation - but Pelosi is the one who makes the evaluation based on the information she has. And when have politicians made decisions based on history over winning elections?
     
  4. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    21,698
    Likes Received:
    18,478
    Yea ok, but we aren't really disagreeing there. The how and path you take is where we disagree. I just caution people that doing the perceived "wrong" thing can be dangerous as well. And I have said it before - she doesn't have a crystal ball and the last time the DEM think they did, they failed miserably. My own crystal ball said the very opposite, that not impeaching him is a danger to both the 2020 election and to future generation - but hey, it's just an opinion so I won't repeat it anymore. The one thing we can and should agree to is - he should be impeached. The only reason it is not happening is because Pelosi rely more on her instinct, data, the crystal ball then on doing her duty and the right thing.

    Let just imagine for a second.... Trump did indeed order foreign gov to investigate, get dirt, fabricate whatever negative info on Biden for his political gain and Pelosi and the DEM does not impeach because the calculus is he won't be removed due to the Senate and it would embolden his supporters or may even give him new supporters. What happen if he win re-election? Impeach him then - yea, way too late. What do you think Trump would do afterward? You think he would step away after his 2nd term is over? You think the DEM can convince the American people to show up in the 2022 election, take over the Senate so they can impeach in 2023? Doing the wrong thing has consequences as well - I think people that go that path are discarding the danger of it and not see far enough.
     
    RayRay10 and B-Bob like this.
  5. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,714
    Likes Received:
    18,912
    Impeaching Trump will be viewed as a political issue, not one of Trump doing wrong. Pelosi understands this. Just because you have the power to do something doesn't mean you should exercise that power.
     
  6. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    58,732
    Likes Received:
    36,182
    It's a legal remedy that she is duty bound to carry out if circumstances so warrant.
     
    No Worries likes this.
  7. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,714
    Likes Received:
    18,912
    There is no law compelling her to impeach trump. She is not bound. The constitution does not say she is bound to impeach Trump.

    Look, should Trump be impeached from an ethics perspective? Absolutely. But she is going to do what makes sense to her.
     
    biff17 likes this.
  8. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    21,698
    Likes Received:
    18,478
    I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

    Yes, view as politic by trump supporters. Those people aren’t going to vote for Dem .

    You think the people that think trump is unlawful see this as a political issue or as a duty that must be exercised? Do you think those people will be encouraged to turn out and vote for the Dem again in 2020 as they did in 2018? In 2022 if the bet was wrong and trump is re-elected? Do you not think turn out and enthusiasm is a large part of winning election? .... those are the bet that the Dem, Pelosi is taking and I think she is deadly wrong.
     
  9. biff17

    biff17 Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2018
    Messages:
    2,901
    Likes Received:
    1,382
    What is a duty to history?I

    If Trump does not get impeached is history going to forget all of **** Trump has done?

    Is the election a question of if democrats are weak or removing Trump from office?

    If there is any doubt about this question Trump deserves 4 more years because we have our priorities seriously ****ed up.

    I don't think impeaching Trump guarantees Trump gets elected or even helps him that much but I don understand this dirty to history of its the right thing argument.

    Is there a special place in historical records that being impeached by the house places you?

    Did history not take kindly to the democrats because they refused to impeach Clinton when history has shown he did lie under oath?

    What exactly would we be impeaching Trump for?

    Obstruction?

    What part of obstruction are you basing it on?

    I believe Trump is corrupt and has obstructed but I don't think there has been a concrete fact to base a trial on.

    is it really worth bringing government to halt just to add to the historic record of Trump when he would still be president?

    It just seems to me the effort and energy would better be used to make sure he is not reelected.
     
    #249 biff17, Sep 22, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  10. mick fry

    mick fry Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2013
    Messages:
    19,343
    Likes Received:
    6,875
    It’s known to the sane as fake outrage.
     
    Silent_Bob likes this.
  11. biff17

    biff17 Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2018
    Messages:
    2,901
    Likes Received:
    1,382
    so you think people think impeaching Trump is more worthy of a vote than voting to rem him from office?

    How does this make sense to you?I

    One thing accomplished a historical footnote and the other guarantees he is removed from office.I

    We really are ****ed.
     
  12. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,714
    Likes Received:
    18,912
    Again there is no law or oath that says she should impeach Trump. Labeling Trump an enemy of the state is subjective.
     
  13. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    21,698
    Likes Received:
    18,478
    I don't know how you got that message. I was talking about turnout among people that want Trump gone.
     
  14. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    21,698
    Likes Received:
    18,478
    "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High crimes and Misdemeanors."

    I just showed you the oath. You know why there is an oath ? The Constitution is dependent on elected folks to act to defend it. It isn't a machine that can act on it's own when it senses danger to itself (maybe we need that in the future :)). That job is the responsibility of elected official in power, who took an oath to protect the Constitution. The Constitution clearly provided an avenue for protection of itself and of the nation - impeachment.

    Obstruction of justice is subjective on if it reaches impeachment level, I agree. Bribery is not - it's specifically spelled out in the Constitution.
     
  15. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    58,732
    Likes Received:
    36,182
    There is actually. Its called Article I.
     
    FranchiseBlade likes this.
  16. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    55,883
    Likes Received:
    47,583
    There is no (article) I in TEAM.
     
    FranchiseBlade likes this.
  17. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    53,658
    Likes Received:
    41,537
    One could argue that the 1998 Congressional Republicans made that decision then.
    History does matter and what is hampering Pelosi et al is the history of what happened in 1998, that said this isn’t the same situation. Trump isn’t Bill Clinton, the nature of his offenses aren’t the same, and the country isn’t the same. Further even taking 1998 the Democrats still lost , albeit very contested, and the GOP controlled government for 6 years.
    We don’t know what will happen to the next year to the country and to the electorate. What we do know is that Trumps corruption is ongoing and if impeachment isn’t used now the chances of ever using it as even a censure on the behavior of a president will become slimmer and weaker.
     
    RayRay10 likes this.
  18. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    53,658
    Likes Received:
    41,537
    As others have noted all members of Congress swear an oath to fulfill a Constitutional duty but this is more than that. If we go back to first principles a situation like Trump was foreseen by the Founders. In the federalist papers they clearly warned of the dangers of a demagogue out to enrich himself in the office. They explicitly laid out the remedy. It is this foundational basis that we have separations of power and that power is granted to the elected representatives. Failure to do so or just counting on the voters to do so is not living up to the principles they have sworn to defend.

    This matters because again if impeachment isn’t for this what is it ever for? Failure to impeach will just weaken an already Legislative branch but also weaken the tool of impeachment for future Congresses.

    As I said in another response Clinton isn’t Trump and the nature of his offense are different. That said Clinton was still impeached and also judicially punished by having his law license revoked. Further many democrats including those who were in office are expressing regret over their defense of Clinton. Particularly in the me too era.
    Obstruction is definitely one count. I’ve read the Mueller report and he very clearly states that obstruction took place and exhaustively details it. He ends the report by stating there is a non judicial remedy to it. That is only one count. For me I would put violations of the emoluments clause as the first count. The next would be refusal to turn over relevant material to Congress which was one of the counts that was to be directed at Richard Nixon.
    Government did function while Clinton was being impeached so it can happen and the inertia of bureaucracy will keep things going even if the two elected branches are consumed with impeachment.

    Again this comes down to history and first principles. To quote Edmund Burke who the Founders were influenced by “all that is necessary for evil to thrive is enough good men to do nothing.” Even if Trump isn’t removed from office that is on those who choose to put partisanship ahead of country. If I was an elected representative I would rather see it recorded that when I had the opportunity I fulfilled my Constitutional duty.
     
  19. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,714
    Likes Received:
    18,912
    No where does it say the speaker must impeach a president. The constitution only outlines the power Congress has, not when it must exercise that power.
     
    biff17 likes this.
  20. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,714
    Likes Received:
    18,912
    Then that failure lies with the Senate who have made it clear they will defend Trump no matter what. It is useless to proceed with a symbolic act just to mark it for the record.
     
    biff17 likes this.

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now