1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Astros Mount Rushmore

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by lnchan, May 23, 2019.

  1. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2010
    Messages:
    8,049
    Likes Received:
    10,844
    Er... have to disagree with a good amount of this...

    https://www.stadiumtalk.com/s/mlb-m..._medium=cpc&utm_source=fac&utm_content=604552

    My list: Biggio, Altuve, Oswalt, and Springer
     
  2. Astrodome

    Astrodome Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2015
    Messages:
    10,993
    Likes Received:
    12,208
    Bagwell, Nolan, Altuve, Wynne
     
  3. SemisolidSnake

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2013
    Messages:
    4,921
    Likes Received:
    5,803
    Bagwell, Biggio/Oswalt, Altuve, Astrodome
     
    raining threes and Astrodome like this.
  4. mick fry

    mick fry Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2013
    Messages:
    19,343
    Likes Received:
    6,875
    Biggio, Bagwell, Ryan, Oswalt. Honorable mention Thon,Cruz and Richard.
     
    gatsby likes this.
  5. xcrunner51

    xcrunner51 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2002
    Messages:
    5,458
    Likes Received:
    2,295
    Seconded.
     
    mick fry likes this.
  6. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    32,634
    Likes Received:
    23,290
    Bagwell, Biggio, Altuve, Oswalt...... in that order, although Jose could be argued #2 already.

    Berkman and Wynn are next.

    Ryan didn't play here long enough.

    Altuve has opportunity to pass Bags.
     
    #6 Houstunna, May 23, 2019
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
    Tomstro likes this.
  7. awc713

    awc713 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    6,394
    Likes Received:
    5,991
    5, 7, 27, 34
     
  8. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    32,634
    Likes Received:
    23,290
    You disagree with Bagwell's potential steroid-use, yet denounce his Top 4 franchise status ?!! Makes no sense.

    Bagwell's only true knocks are 1) potential steroid-use (something Craig has too.. and a player you named Top 4) and 2) playoff performance (something Craig also suffers).

    Besides that, Bagwell is one of the greatest phenoms the league has ever seen. The hitting is obvious, but other than that, his defense and baserunning have never been seen in league history from a 1B.
     
  9. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2010
    Messages:
    8,049
    Likes Received:
    10,844
    I am probably weighing postseason performance more than most... But a NLCS MVP and 2nd in franchise wins can't be omitted (still baffling how Reynolds is recognized in the Astros HOF first) and neither can a World Series MVP (although Springer was my bubble guy out of the set, but Bags against the Braves in the 90s was traumatizing). Biggio is a lock with being the first HOFer with an Astros cap while being a key piece in 2005 plus the longevity, and only one that has acccused Biggio of anything is Chass Murray. Altuve has a ring and a MVP. Dierk maybe for his time as manager as well as player... He's the Astros version of Rudy T. I'll have Nolan ahead of him though. Both ahead of Wags...
     
  10. Game7

    Game7 Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    711
    Likes Received:
    1,070
    Bagwell and Biggio are locks IMO. Maybe because I grew up watching them and remember Bagwell’s rookie year. The other 2 are open to interpretation but Altuve is a deserving pick. Oswalt would probably be next for me. I am showing my age. Lots of older guys deserve to be mentioned here and lots of newer guys haven’t proved enough/haven’t been around long enough.
     
  11. BigM

    BigM Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2001
    Messages:
    17,964
    Likes Received:
    13,113
    Biggio and Bagwell are locks as of this second. Anything else is nonsense. You can’t ding them on speculation of steroids because of the era they played in. Nothing would surprise me and they both may have used but known users aren’t calling them out and they aren’t listed in any reports. So what the **** are we doing here? How do I know Frank Thomas didn’t use something? Griffey? Where does this stop? So yeah both should have been first ballot hall of famers and are inarguably the top 2 players in franchise history.... for the time being.
     
    Dirt Road, arkoe and Houstunna like this.
  12. sealclubber1016

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    18,998
    Likes Received:
    27,527
    Jeff Bagwell is so far and away this franchises greatest player even if he never played a postseason game there wouldn't be an argument. It's comically absurd to actually have a list that doesn't have him at 1, much less not in the top 4. We don't have a postseason to fail in if not for Bagwell.

    When he finally didn't have to face dominant pitchers in almost every game Bagwell was great in the 01 and 04 postseasons (.304 and .909 OPS) before his shoulder finally fell off in 05.(He had no business on that playoff roster)
     
  13. awc713

    awc713 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    6,394
    Likes Received:
    5,991
    If you don’t have Jeffrey Robert Bagwell on your Astros Mt. Rushmore.......I just don’t know what to tell you. You need to get some help.

    His playoff sample is far too small for any meaningful analysis. Really to no fault of his own, either. I mean...look at Trout. McLane didn’t exactly help Bagwell out for his first decade. By the time we were getting to the playoffs with more regularity, he was either playing on one shoulder or on teams not equipped for long runs. Sidenote, shoutout to his 9th inning game tying single in 04 at Busch Stadium.



    I will not tolerate any Jeffrey Robert Bagwell slander here. He is without a doubt a top 4 player in our franchise. Pay homage to greatness.
     
  14. msn

    msn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    11,726
    Likes Received:
    2,093
    As others have said, Bagwell is number 1. Biggio is number 2. Everything else has some more reasonable debate.

    These newer guys need more tenure before they unseat Bagwell and Biggio. That ring is super special, no doubt, but you can't have less than a decade of tenure and unseat our Hall of Famers.
     
    snowconeman22 likes this.
  15. leroy

    leroy Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Messages:
    26,276
    Likes Received:
    9,480
    To be fair, Ryan was an Astro for 9 full seasons. Oswalt was an Astro for 9.5 seasons. Altuve is in his 9th total season (only played 57 games in his first).
     
    arkoe and Astrodome like this.
  16. Buck Turgidson

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    84,927
    Likes Received:
    83,114
    Just tell 'em they're a dumbass.
     
    gatsby, whiskeyred, arkoe and 3 others like this.
  17. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    32,634
    Likes Received:
    23,290
    Yeah, I'd researched his stats after posting and before seeing this post. Ryan put in work. Was thinking he'd only played 5-6 seasons.
     
    Astrodome likes this.
  18. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    23,838
    Likes Received:
    13,895
    Decade? Bagwell and Biggio put up long careers, but they are tops because of their peak performance. Bagwell's peak performance over a 6 year period is going to be tough to top. Biggio...Altuve came pretty close to Biggio's 4-year period peak. Bregman, if he plays another 2.5 years like he has the past 1.5, he'll pass Biggio's peak by a decent margin and have at least 1 ring. I'll take ring and peak performance over longevity even if Bregman only would have 6 years at that point.
     
  19. jim1961

    jim1961 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,049
    Likes Received:
    12,908
  20. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2010
    Messages:
    8,049
    Likes Received:
    10,844
    In my defense, I still have Bagwell in my top 8. (Of the current core, I actually think Springer has the lowest remaining ceiling.) The more I think about it Dierker deserves a slot just as much Tomjanovich will be in the Rockets top 4 not just for his playing days.

    All-time WAR
    Position Players
    1. Jeff Bagwell 79.9
    2. Craig Biggio 65.5
    3. Jose Cruz 51.4
    4. Cesar Cedeno 49.6
    5. Lance Berkman 48.2
    6. Jim Wynn 41.6
    7. Jose Altuve 35.1
    8. Joe Morgan 30.7
    9. Bill Doran 30.5
    10. Terry Puhl 28.5

    Pitchers
    WAR for Pitchers †
    1. Roy Oswalt 45.8
    2. Larry Dierker 34.3
    3. Don Wilson 27.5
    4. Nolan Ryan 25.4
    5. Mike Scott 24.8
    6. Joe Niekro 23.0
    7. J.R. Richard 21.5
    8. Shane Reynolds 19.1
    9. Ken Forsch 19.0
    10. Dallas Keuchel 18.5

    Still how the franchise recognized Reynolds before Oswalt is the real crime.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now