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Pat Bev on the trade block?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by motleydeflep6, Jun 18, 2017.

  1. basketballholic

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    His turnover percentage is going higher and higher. Law of diminishing returns.
     
  2. Daddy Long Legs

    Daddy Long Legs H- Town Harden

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    Harden plays the 1 on offense regardless of any move we'd make, short of getting chris paul.

    This would also free up gordon to be a starting 2 guard again. Gordon is also a goid defender on pointguards. He guards westbrook, curry, and those guys half the time now anyways
     
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  3. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    what does that have to do with PB when hes not even the ball handler
     
  4. kingkingston

    kingkingston Member

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    actually his turnover percentage is quite low when compared to how many touches/possessions he has.

    it was lower this season than nearly every Stockton season ever


    Turnover % is a stat which records the % of your possessions that end in turnovers per 100 possessions
     
    #424 kingkingston, Jun 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  5. basketballholic

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    It's a senseless stat because it only counts scoring attempts and turnovers. All it does is measure turnovers against scoring attempts combined with turnovers. It's basically useless.

    The point is the more usage James has gotten the higher his turnover percentage climbs.

    It's the law of diminished returns. Too much reliance on Harden = too many turnovers.

    Nobody has ever won a championship while averaging over 4.1 turnovers a game in either the regular season or the playoffs. There a reason for that.
     
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  6. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    Deleted due to 2011 rules for vet extensions. See JRs post below for new rules
     
    #426 heypartner, Jun 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
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  7. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    The formula doesn't measure touches or possessions or usage or anything like that. It is a ratio of shots to TOs, that's all.

    Here's the stupid formula.

    The formula for both offensive and defensive turnover percentage is TO / (FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TO).​

    Tell me why this is a useful stat. What would this stat tell you about Stockton or other ball dominant PGs who don't shoot much, by design

    TO% (which should be called Shots to TO ratio) is a pretty bad stat, useful for only comparing scorers to each other, imo. I really don't see its value at all. It doesn't have really anything to do with a Usage measurement, or player possessions. Those are much more complicated statistics.. Who cares how many fga to turnovers you have. That is not a good way at all to measure Stockton and magic
     
    #427 heypartner, Jun 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
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  8. J.R.

    J.R. Member

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    Pat Beverley is eligible for an extension.



    The rule change in the new CBA that focuses on veteran extensions could have an impact on the Rockets.

    Under the 2011 CBA, only Ariza and Capela would have been eligible.

    Beverley and Williams are now eligible because players who signed contracts for more than three or four years can now be extended after the second anniversary of the contract.

    Under the 2011 CBA, only players who signed four- or five-year contracts could be extended and only after the third anniversary of when the contract was signed.

    Beverley is now eligible to sign a three-year, $31 million extension that would start in 2019-20.

    The first-year salary of $8.8 million would represent a significant pay increase for a player who ranked 34th among point guards in 2016-17.

    Williams, entering the final season of a three-year contract, can sign a four-year, $39 million extension.

    Capela, entering the fourth year of his rookie extension, can be extended for a total of four years and up to 25 percent of the 2018-19 salary cap.

    However, because Capela has a $7 million cap hold in 2018, Houston would be best off waiting to re-sign him unless an extension allows them to retain flexibility.
     
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  9. kingkingston

    kingkingston Member

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    amazing that you put the .1 in there because you knew Magic Johnson won it when averaging 4.0 tpg.....but then again not every game has the same amount of possessions in it also. Turnover stats are over rated a lot now. there will always be turnovers. I'm more worried about putting the ball in the hole and actually having players that can hit an open jumper after Harden has set them up.
     
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  10. theDude

    theDude Contributing Member
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    I thought his contract was over market value back then. If he thought differently, he shouldn't have signed it.
    While I know it is not a definitive ranking, it's still a pretty respectable way to rank players, and Patrick Beverly was ranked #41 in the league for point guards this year. So, one could argue that he was actually overpaid.

    It has Harden and Williams listed as shooting guards (and ranked #1 and #3), but since the players are interchangeable and basically spell each other at various times, you can see why now may be the time to move Beverley rather than extending him. That money would be more wisely spent upgrading another position. Beverley is simply not the type of player you commit to for 6 years. His role on this team has changed, and if he wants to get the stats he needs to get paid on his next contract, he needs to move on.
     
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  11. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    Thx @J.R. Knew I must have missed something. Couldn't find any mention of that in several lists of key changes to CBA, and Coon hasn't updated, yet. Should have spent that time looking through all the pages in this thread instead. Lols

    So, he'd settle for a bump to $9m, effective in two years? Guess so. Probably risky to bet on more at that later time on the open market.

    I assume the rule of allowing extensions to be part of trades is still in place. fwiw
     
    #431 heypartner, Jun 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
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  12. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    So he wants an additional 3 years and 30 mill. To add to 2 years and 10 mill.

    Which is 40m/5 years for Beverley >> $8m per season. Which is still, a f'in bargain for Beverley. On the open market today, he would easily net in excess of that contract. He is almost certain to earn the extension.

    If anything, I question his agent's intelligence pushing for this deal. If I were Bev, I take my chances on the open market in 2 years.
     
  13. BackdoorHarden

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    He is a Curry stopper. Curry goes for 30 points against other guys and Bev's great defense make Curry earn those 27 points
     
  14. Mr. Motiejunas

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    Bev is very overrated but he is the heart and soul of the team.
     
  15. basketballholic

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    Yes, magic stretched it to the limit......And those laker teams played at a faster pace than we do. In other words they had more possessions per game than we do. That was Showtime fast break basketball. So remember that.

    Turnovers are important. They are a leading indicator of what's going to happen to a team in the playoffs. But go ahead and keep ignoring them.

    Nobody has ever won a championship while averaging over 4.1 turnovers per game.
     
  16. kingkingston

    kingkingston Member

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    Only matters whether you can put the ball in the basket. That is what matters in basketball.....Golden State have won both their titles by giving up more turnovers than they have caused the other team to comit.....see one players turnover numbers are not always as important than a whole teams
     
  17. kingkingston

    kingkingston Member

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    he still scores 27 points a game against us, that isn't stopping him. you can make a player earn his points, but stopping him is not letting him get to 27 points. Curry torched us in the last three games we played against the Warriors in the regular season.
     
  18. threepointshot3

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    With Paul here obviously Harden will move to the two but majority of the scoring will still go through him as he is the undisputed best player on the team. Paul will just help by taking the lion share of the playmaking burden off him. This could be scary combo. Dumars/Thomas good
     
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  19. basketballholic

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    You can't put the ball in the hole when you turn it over.

    Golden State played at a faster pace than us, they threw 55 more passes a game than us and they still had less turnovers than us.

    And no, Golden State didn't have anybody on their team that had over 4.1 turnovers a game. Not even close.

    Individual turnover count is a leading indicator of where a team is headed in the playoffs. Instead of thinking about some player possibly being the one outlier on the chart in 40 seasons (when Magic and Zeke are already the outliers), and thinking we can build a team to win a ship in today's NBA environment by playing that way, you should consider the obvious. Up until now Harden has turned the ball over more each season as the offense has become more and more Harden-centric. And every post season it leads to disaster exits with Harden posting gargantuan turnover numbers in close out games while jacking up an obscene number of crappy pull up jumpers.

    You simply cannot win a championship in today's NBA with the current rule structure with one guy being the sole shot creator and distributor and every play running through him.

    Turnovers do matter.
     
  20. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    probably deserves its own thread, but I ain't the one who's gonna do it. :eek:

    https://www.thedreamshake.com/2017/6/22/15851626/nba-trade-rumors-james-harden-patrick-beverley


    NBA trade rumors: Is trading James Harden a better move than trading Patrick Beverley?
    Harden is much better, but his playoff failures are hard to ignore.
    by Ethan Rothstein@ethanrothstein Jun 22, 2017, 8:00am CDT

    As we speak, the Houston Rockets are reportedly looking for a trade partner in order to ship Patrick Beverley out of town so they can land a second superstar to pair with James Harden.

    But with the Rockets potentially about to hand Harden a brand new, shiny $200 million contract, the question is: Will he be the one to lead the team to the promised land?

    The Harden experiment has worked out better than expected.

    Back in 2012, the Rockets traded for a sixth man and in the years since, Harden has turned himself into one of the best players in the league.

    Each year since Harden has been in Houston, the Rockets have been to the playoffs, but they have never broken through to the NBA Finals, and only once been to the Western Conference Finals.​

    more at the link
     

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