1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Robert Mueller, Former F.B.I. Director, Is Named Special Counsel for Russia Investigation

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by KingCheetah, May 17, 2017.

  1. leroy

    leroy Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Messages:
    26,371
    Likes Received:
    9,604
    I know this is a tough time for you. There's not enough cartoons in the world to mask your pain. It's ok, buddy. Just let it out.
     
    biff17, joshuaao, quikkag and 3 others like this.
  2. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    54,440
    Likes Received:
    54,352
    LOL, the weather must have improved enough for trump to go golfing. And...

     
  3. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2001
    Messages:
    17,518
    Likes Received:
    12,005
  4. IBTL

    IBTL Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    12,118
    Likes Received:
    12,261
    Incompetence gunna incompet
     
    NewRoxFan likes this.
  5. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,746
    Likes Received:
    2,153
    Nancy Pelosi has made it clear on a consistent basis is that she does not think that impeachment should be pursued. Yesterday Democrat Majority Leader Steny Hoyer announced publicly, surely in coordination with Speaker Pelosi - after the release of the Mueller report - that impeachment is not happening in the House of Representatives.

    It is over. Perhaps it is time you started progressing through the five stages of grief. Honestly, the sooner you get started, the sooner you get finished. Here they are:

    1. Denial
    2. Anger
    3. Bargaining
    4. Depression
    5. Acceptance​

    Now to be fair, you and most of your comrades here are obviously fully embracing the Denial. But it is acceptance you ultimately need to be striving for.

    Let it go. You will be glad you did.
     
  6. dmoneybangbang

    Joined:
    May 5, 2012
    Messages:
    20,999
    Likes Received:
    12,871
    #totalexoneration
     
  7. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    30,101
    Likes Received:
    16,997
    Maybe if we disguised the MR as a not-so-moderate-democrat op-ed piece, we can trick @Os Trigonum into reading it.
     
    #8227 No Worries, Apr 19, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
    Rashmon and Ubiquitin like this.
  8. dmoneybangbang

    Joined:
    May 5, 2012
    Messages:
    20,999
    Likes Received:
    12,871
    Rudy Giuliani doing damage control while Trump is golfing...

     
  9. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    47,730
    Likes Received:
    36,654
    Trump is so grateful that most of America haven't read a 400 page document since high school or never at all.
     
    #8229 fchowd0311, Apr 19, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
    biff17 likes this.
  10. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    30,101
    Likes Received:
    16,997
    Works for Saint Paul ...
     
    #8230 No Worries, Apr 19, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
    mdrowe00 likes this.
  11. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    30,101
    Likes Received:
    16,997
    Trump is leading by example, since he likely did not get past the first paragraph.
     
    fchowd0311 likes this.
  12. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    30,101
    Likes Received:
    16,997
    Two weeks ago, Trump was marketing the MR as ... full exoneration

    Today, Trump is marketing the MR as ... total bullsh*t written by 18 angry Democrats.

    Trump is averaging 10 lies a day. Hard to believe a thing he says, especially when goes into fact-free mode.
     
    havoc1 likes this.
  13. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    34,709
    Likes Received:
    33,750
    The guy is honestly a lot like Ike Turner. I remember an interview of him after Tina Tuner's autobiography came out.

    IKE: That book is lies, Terry Gross!
    GROSS: Have you... read the book, Ike?
    IKE: WHY WOULD I READ IT! IT'S A BOOK OF LIES!!!
    GROSS: Um... (clearly feeling unsafe in the studio with him.)
     
    mdrowe00 likes this.
  14. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,746
    Likes Received:
    2,153
    Here is what should be regarded as the keynote article of this entire deranged, politically perverted exercise. Truly excellent. Concise, and yet covering the important points. From Christopher Buskirk writing at the New York Times:

    Dems and Their Media Allies Owe Trump an Apology

    The American political and media elites that spent the first two years of the Trump administration promoting the Russian collusion hoax have some explaining to do. And not merely explaining: They owe the president an apology.

    As Attorney General William Barr said on Thursday before releasing the Mueller report, “After nearly two years of investigation, thousands of subpoenas, and hundreds of warrants and witness interviews, the special counsel confirmed that the Russian government sponsored efforts to illegally interfere with the 2016 presidential election but did not find that the Trump campaign or other Americans colluded in those schemes.”

    And yet nearly the entire complex of elite media was actively complicit in promoting the biggest political conspiracy theory in American history: that Hillary Clinton lost the election because Donald Trump conspired with Vladimir Putin to — well, that was always a moving target — but to somehow deprive Mrs. Clinton of victory. What we now know definitively is that Robert Mueller, the special counsel, and a team of very accomplished, mostly Clinton-supporting, prosecutors were unable to find evidence of a conspiracy that had been taken as an article of faith by Trump haters.

    Journalists don’t like being called “fake news,” but too many of them uncritically accepted the Trump-Russia narrative, probably because of their strong distaste for Mr. Trump himself. But that lack of objectivity represents a major professional failure, and it’s Exhibit A in why Mr. Trump’s taunt resonates with so many Americans. Gallup polling shows that for 69 percent of Americans, trust in the media has fallen over the last decade. Among Republicans, it’s 94 percent; for independents, it’s 75 percent and for moderates it’s 66. Only among self-identified liberals and progressives does a majority continue to trust the media. They like what they hear.

    I’ve spent countless hours on radio and television since the fall of 2016 explaining to respected journalists why the Russian collusion story doesn’t get much, if any, traction in Middle America. This is because the allegations of collusion are not true and because most people who are not deeply committed to irrational Trump hatred see them for what they are: an inside-the-Beltway story being used as a political weapon to undermine the president and overturn — or at least neutralize — the 2016 election.

    The whole ordeal had a detrimental effect on the president and the country. As Mr. Barr put it Thursday morning, “The president was frustrated and angered by a sincere belief that the investigation was undermining his presidency, propelled by his political opponents, and fueled by illegal leaks.”

    He was right. And it was obvious in places like Arizona (where I live), but not in Washington or New York.

    For nearly four years, members of America’s ruling class, especially those in the media, the academy and government, have operated on one central, unquestioned assumption: orange man bad. This stifling orthodoxy led to a blind, counterfactual faith in the theory that Mr. Trump had somehow colluded with “the Russians” (never well defined) to win the election. Again, the specific charges were always amorphous — plastic enough to change as needed. That’s hardly surprising: That’s the way conspiracy theories always work. The Russian collusion hoax was in fact nothing more than a massively multiplayer coping mechanism for people who couldn’t accept the results of the 2016 election.

    But why is it not enough to simply acknowledge that you dislike Mr. Trump and disagree with his policies? What psychological purpose does adding the fiction of a conspiracy serve?

    The French philosopher and literary critic René Girard held that such scapegoating and ritual sacrifice is an essential part of group identity and solidarity. That seems to apply here. Mr. Trump ran against American elites and their insular culture. Their response was to load onto him all of the sins they see in American society and attempt to sacrifice him to appease their gods.

    Mr. Girard asked a question that is pertinent today: “Why is our own participation in scapegoating so difficult to perceive and the participation of others so easy? To us, our fears and prejudices never appear as such because they determine our vision of people we despise, we fear, and against whom we discriminate.”

    But the ritual sacrifice of Donald Trump didn’t work — at least not in the sense of removing him from office. It certainly did have the effect of catalyzing and uniting his opponents. Still, one of the many ironies here is that the Trump-hating media has handed him an incredibly powerful weapon for the 2020 campaign, one that may ensure his re-election.

    Again, the operating principle was that of the zealot: Believe the narrative regardless of the lack of evidence, squint to see justifications where there are none and then in an intoxicated frenzy of moral superiority use any weapon at hand to destroy your enemy.

    Shortly after Mr. Mueller concluded his investigation without any indictments related to Russian collusion with the Trump campaign, Representative Adam Schiff, now the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, did not admit he was wrong — far from it. He brazenly doubled down, saying during a committee hearing, “You may think it’s O.K. how Trump and his associates interacted with Russians during the campaign. I don’t. I think it’s immoral. I think it’s unethical. I think it’s unpatriotic. And yes, I think it’s corrupt.”

    The problem is that the Mueller investigation, as Mr. Barr explained, “did not find that the Trump campaign or other Americans colluded in those schemes.”

    Mr. Schiff must know this. He must have known it for a long time. But he has persisted in slandering innocent people for personal political gain. His selfishness has led to a level of civil discord and political acrimony not seen since the late 1960s. That is what I call immoral, unethical, unpatriotic and yes, corrupt.

    Too many politicians and journalists were eager, whether cynically or gullibly, to take the bait. The list of collusion Truthers is long. The politicians include not only Mr. Schiff, but people like his congressional colleagues Maxine Waters, Eric Swalwell and Richard Blumenthal. The media enablers included Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski, Rachel Maddow (who built her show around Russia Trutherism), David Corn, Michael Isikoff, Manu Raju, Brian Stelter and many others. These people represent themselves as straight journalists who are fair, independent, oriented around facts. What a lot of Americans have seen instead is political partisans.

    And then, of course, there is the recently arrested Michael Avenatti, who was eagerly embraced by Trump haters. He appeared on CNN and MSNBC an embarrassing 108 times in a 64-day period in 2018. How could they not see him for what he is?

    There are three types of people who promoted Russian collusion hoax. First, those who knew it was false all along, but promoted it for money, power, prestige or dopamine hits from Twitter high-fives. Second, the journalists who had a responsibility to dig into this story rather than just repeating what they hoped was true and what the story’s promoters were telling them.

    Jeff Zucker, the president of CNN Worldwide, is emblematic of the problem. “We are not investigators,” he said last month. “We are journalists, and our role is to report the facts as we know them, which is exactly what we did.” Has anyone ever seriously thought that investigation was not a core function of journalism?

    And then there is the Kool-Aid brigade. These are the people outside of politics, the people who couldn’t wait to hear what Rachel Maddow had to say, who believed every breathless prediction on cable news that “new revelations could spell the end for Trump,” and who shared these nuggets with a mixture of indignation and ecstasy on social media.

    But the collusion truthers were not all on the left. Trump-hating neoliberals at some of the old, legacy conservative publications were eager to believe it too. They believed the worst of Mr. Trump because they wanted to, and it led them astray. And none of them have owned their mistake yet, meaning that, as night follows day, they will be duped again.

    To the public figures who promoted the collusion story, I say: Own it. Just admit you were wrong. It won’t feel good at first. But when the initial sting passes you will find it liberating. And people will respect you for it. The media and political elites have a lot of work to do if they want to regain the trust of the American people. Confessing a major error that needlessly turned Americans against one another is a good place to start.​
     
  15. TheFreak

    TheFreak Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 1999
    Messages:
    18,252
    Likes Received:
    3,202
    [​IMG]
     
  16. dmoneybangbang

    Joined:
    May 5, 2012
    Messages:
    20,999
    Likes Received:
    12,871
    All those words....

    And no words about whether or not Trump and his hand picked folks acted appropriately.

    Has anyone else noticed that none of the right wingers are weighing in on whether or not Trump and his people acted appropriately?

    Where’s the apology for “witch hunt”, “total fabrication” from the right wing media?
     
  17. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    47,730
    Likes Received:
    36,654
    The smart right wing people(people in it for power) are banking on the notion that the 90% of the average right wing population don't understand basic Common law concepts such as a criminal conviction requires "beyond a reasonable doubt" meaning that to convict someone, the justice system must be 99.9% sure to follow through with a conviction precisely because it's better to let an alleged murderer walk free than punish an innocent human.

    That is the only reason Mueller is not willing to indict the President or accept collusion. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence along with private correspondences that explicitly show that the Trump campaign willingly wanted Russian support for their election campaign. Is there evidence that is "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the Trump campaign explicitly helped Russia in hacking the DNC private email servers? Nope.

    The Presidency is a privilege, not a right. Denying someone the privilege of the Presidency is not a form of punishment, thus our political system can be 90% sure instead of the high bar of 99.9% sure for a criminal conviction to remove him from office or at the very least not re-elect him.
     
  18. Amiga

    Amiga 10 years ago...
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    21,858
    Likes Received:
    18,639
    The reason he didn't indict is because he can't due to DoJ stance, not because there isn't evidences to do so. He punt the responsibility to Congress to remove the President, and to future prosecutors (to indict him once he's out of office). He lay out a pretty clear case of indictment for obstruction of justice. He just can't utter the word.
     
    Ubiquitin likes this.
  19. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    47,730
    Likes Received:
    36,654
    I'm referring specifically to Russian collusion which Mueller states that he did not establish collusion. Mueller didn't establish collusion based on the "beyond a reasonable doubt" criteria.
     
  20. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    24,001
    Likes Received:
    19,906
    Conspiracy... not Collusion. I don't believe Mueller used the word "collusion" one time in his report if I recall.

    The whole first 180+ pages are all kinds of "Collusiony" acts well documented. If there was no there there that Mueller didn't go out of his way to put a spotlight on, volume 1 would have been about 20 pages just on Russia's acts.

    Us Democrats are just so bad at narrative... I have to admit. If the roles were reversed and this was a Dem campaign, how many times a day would we hear jackasses like Ted Cruz say "Obama and his regime sought help from the Iranian Government!!"?? You would NEVER be able to get a Republican in front of the camera without those words being screamed at us the viewer/voter.

    And the voters do take up these talking points. How many times have we heard voters say "We are more concerned with things like Healthcare, and infrastructure"??... You know why???.... Because that's what they hear on the media all the damn time, and from Republicans who say "American's don't care about Trump Russia... They care about policies that put money back in their pockets...etc. etc".

    Democrats have a nest egg of narrative coming out of this report. We are just terrible at weaponizing something like this, and have been laying the groundwork for two years now to allow the American people to shrug off the results.

    Facts are... the whole first 180+ pages.... Americans SHOULD think that is really really bad. Not an exoneration because idiots like Trump Jr. were too stupid to know how to conspire correctly.
     
    fchowd0311 likes this.

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now